Why do we hate the Air2?

[BennyM]

Does that include eyes in the back of their heads?

Please spare us this self glorification.

 

[DaleC]

Lynne, I hope both you and Dan don't think I am bashing the regime. I admire it for what it is (though I at times try to keep it real by offering counterpoints) and like both yours and Dans contributions to the board and respect the accumulated wisdom that comes with it.
True, I feel strongly about the validity of my position within the thread but it doesn't matter enough to me to have either of you feel that I disrespect your choices personally.
I'm going to bow out now as I feel my points have been made and unless something new develops I'll turn my attention to that "other" thread.

 

[TSandM]

Does that include eyes in the back of their heads?

Please spare us this self glorification.

I really shouldn't respond to this, but . . . I don't understand your comment. I already said that if someone approaches me from behind, I won't know they are coming -- but they won't see my backup reg, either.

There's no "glorification". I make mistakes, and my DIR friends make mistakes, too. But if you try to posit a situation where someone can get very close to me without me knowing it, and perceive that I have a necklaced regulator, and try to wrestle me for it, you are getting close to what a friend of mine calls a "LHOTP" scenario. Little House on the Prairie was apparently a show where, in each episode, one thing after another went wrong, until the total became ridiculously unlikely. You can come up with LHOTP scenarios to show the weakness of every single gear and procedure decision in diving . . . but the reality is that cascades of failures are unlikely, particularly if the first problem is appropriately dealt with.

 

[dmoore19]

How did this thread become a diatribe against DIR diving? snip

In the words of Jessica Rabbit "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way"

It seems to me that when the title of a thread is "Why we hate Air 2" the conversation starts out confrontational and it doesn't get better.

I have learned a lot from reading your posts in many threads. What I have realized from this one is I probably have not practiced with my current configuration enough. It has also made me think about changing my configuration. All I would need to purchase is a longer hose for my second stage and a necklace. I could try all of the different configurations and see which one I liked. I don't recall ever seeing anybody with a long hose so routing it properly could be interesting.

 

[BennyM]

TSandM,

I respect your tenacity and your enthusiasm but I see that the DIR folks are turning into a self righteous cult that is putting down anything and anyone who doesn't conform to their dogma. Statements like "I like/love to dive with DIR only types" (or something close) just overflows with contempt and snobbishness towards the "other" folks. I can't ever think that I'd say I only want to dive with a NAUI or BSAC only divers. I have been diving long enough (40 years) and made thousands of dives and used all types of gear that I just get really bored with these superiority fantasies.

I was diving today with people from all types of agencies (around 20). I had lots of fun with them. I also used my AirII for a while U/W at around 80ft. I was able to breath from it, inflate/deflate the BC, maintain proper buoyancy and make an ascent while sharing air with my new buddy who was using my primary SS no problem. The AirII doesn't breath like my top of the line SS but it breaths like my middle of the road sherwood SS.

 

[TSandM]

I started to answer, but a) this thread is not about the snobbery or lack thereof in DIR divers. We can and have covered that at painful length elsewhere; and b) nothing I say is going to change your mind. At least the end of the post went back to the original topic.

 

[DaleC]

But if you try to posit a situation where someone can get very close to me without me knowing it, and perceive that I have a necklaced regulator, and try to wrestle me for it, you are getting close to what a friend of mine calls a "LHOTP" scenario.

Come on Lynne, someone in your vicinity fixates on your B/U reg. That's it. Since when did irrational OOA reactions become LHOTP scenarios. I said I wouldn't, but this was my construct and I don't think it deserves that form of demeanment.
If so, does the observation that a recipient might grab an AIR 2 in panic, with the donor thereby losing control of their bouyancy, also become null and void? Never going to happen?

My memories of LHOTP was of my mother being quite critical of Mrs Ingals. Perhaps, aware of her own falibility, she used to say that no mother could be that good, all the time. Curious eh. I also remember that Mary Ingals was hot and I really had a thing for flannel (but that's another story).

 

[TSandM]

Well, Dale, what I'm trying to say is that, for someone to grab my backup reg, they have to approach me from the front and be able to see that it's there. If they approach me from the front, I can see them, too, and offer my primary. If the viz is so bad that I can't see them coming, they can't see my backup reg, either. If I'm totally distracted and I don't see them coming, AND my buddy/buddies don't see them coming (remember, we dive in teams, and if I'm occupied, likely one of my teammates is watching me) then I'm likely looking down, making grabbing my backup reg physically rather difficult.

Could it happen? I suppose. Am I going to spend much time worrying about it? No. The reg will come out of the necklace, and I'll probably be in the process of getting dragged to the surface by somebody who's totally lost it.

 

[diveprof]

There are those who believe that your gear should be the same for every environment. Other threads about muscle memory, being able to respond to an emergency without thought have been posted and may (to some) have merit (though I am from the "stop, think and then act" school of thought). For divers that dive infrequently, I would probably advocate against the Air II. For the frequent diver crowd that is comfortable with slight variations in gear set-up, the Air II is an option for certain situations. i have a warm water, singe tank, non-teaching or supervising set-up that incorporates an Air II (on a pull dump hose- so no "dumping air" issue there), an OxyCheq 18 lb wing and SS travel plate. I dive a lot and am comfortable with this set-up in limited situations (no overhead, dive buddy I've dove with and practiced with a bit). I breathe off my Air II every few dives for practice. I actually have the Air II on my cold water set-up too, but also have an octo on a 5 or 7' hose. I see this as redundancy. Yes, I'm not DIR.

 

[danvolker]

Dan, you said a DIR diver will see diver coming over to take air, that's how there trained.

Sorry Pal, Dir diver will get his air pulled when a diver comes at him, from behind, above, below. There is no way that a DIR diver will always see a diver coming for air.


Further more if Dir divers use an Air2, then you would not teach a DIR diver to always be aware of divers in your area, I mean really, you teach DIR divers to just look at all the divers, and know what they are going to do next. Now that seems to be just fun to do on a dive.

The navy seals, and navy divers that I run into out on the water, are not even close to your way of thinking, they know like most, that anything can happen instantly. You have to be open for a decision change in a split second.


The Air2 is a good choice for air, it is always close and easy to get when needed, there has been good points brought on this thread, and I see a pattern of how all divers have learned of these, and still on this subject it has brought on some new and interesting convo.

Mcguiver, I told you at start, this is a great first post, and to get Dir involved was a good Idea, to see how different views are brought upon.

And Dan, what is it, you have to put down a big rugby person, and he has no brains, these are the things that kill leadership in you, People are DIR divers no matter what there occupation is.

Voodoo guy
Lynne did a great job of explaining the reasons DIR divers see OOA people coming...we are trained to scan the horizon, to be aware of where all our buddies are, all the time without exception, and to know pretty much how much gas our buddies have...

Navy Seals do insertions into hostile military zones, and have to swim several miles in or out. They are athletes, and I respect them.


Navy Spec Warfare used to go to watch the WKPP and George do things they did not believe could be done...and the WKPP kept doing it further and further, with only a fraction of the deco the Navy would have planned for it...WKPP and DIR methods involve "different dive profiles than the insertions Seals do.

If I had to jump out of a plane or helicopter with some seals, and swim under enemy ships and into a harbor, I would be listening to every thing they said before the jump, and doing my best to mimic everything they did on the dive....This is there area.

If a bunch of SEALS went to Wakulla, you have to know they are too smart to believe they know more about Cave diving than JJ and the DIR group.
Same would be true of deep technical ocean dives in 300 feet of water covering 3 or 4 miles on a single run with scooters, prior to an acellerated deco schedule. A smart SEAL that had the training to do this, would normally be smart enough to follow the people with the track record.

In the scenario you are throwing around, there is no reason to talk about SEALS, and the DIR's you are talking about, are not really DIR divers...I think you are seeing people who like DIR, who have adopted some of DIR, but there is so much more than just the gear, there is no way anyone could call them DIR.....Maybe DIR'ish
It's not the same.

I'd almost pay the cost for you to go through a fundies class, so that you could actually see first hand how very different the skills and training are, and what it means for a diver to actually be DIR.


Oh and the Rugby comment....Again, where you get these ideas I don't know....I needed to follow the line of the anology you guys had created--that one of our "DIR guys" was going to get over-powered.....if that is going to happen, then I am going to figure it is a really big guy...so I chose one of the toughest kinds of individuals there are..a Rugby player.. areally big one..... You guys are the ones that were insisting he was going mindless ...

Of course, if he was to go after my DIR group, the big rugby player would be easily handled by Nate.