Why do we hate the Air2?

[VooDooGasMan]

Dan when you started your project thread, a diver asked if he can go spearfishing, you had no problem of it for the most part.

You read your post, and they are not a very inviting read for a diver to decide they want to go DIR.

NWGD puts it words that is comfortable to become Dir diver, as do a great many on this board.

I see that your leadership is a bit on the follow the rules for dir, But to think that a real DIR diver will see, another diver coming for your air supply that is not diving with your group. What are you implying here, that if this happens to a DIR diver, that diver will get his DIR card taken away, and not allowed to dive with DIR divers.

Also you say that some problems have not ever happened. There are so many dives that have went south, that are not mentioned on the internet. So you have not a clue how many Dir divers have made mistakes.

And If DIR is trained your way, of course a diver will not say anything, there not going to loose there time and money for dive, there just going to keep it as a lesson learned and keep it to themselves.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

See, NWGD has put it in to a nice way of diving, in above post.

 

[danvolker]

Dan when you started your project thread, a diver asked if he can go spearfishing, you had no problem of it for the most part.

You read your post, and they are not a very inviting read for a diver to decide they want to go DIR.

NWGD puts it words that is comfortable to become Dir diver, as do a great many on this board.

Again you did not read .... I said there was one individual team.. a team of three divers, that would not mind....the rest of the teams would quite possibly not want this, and would not have it.

I see that your leadership is a bit on the follow the rules for dir, But to think that a real DIR diver will see, another diver coming for your air supply that is not diving with your group. What are you implying here, that if this happens to a DIR diver, that diver will get his DIR card taken away, and not allowed to dive with DIR divers.

This is your fabrication, and it has nothing at all to do with what I said.
If any DIR diver sees a diver out of air from some "other" group, the primary long hose would be out of his mouth, and he would be swimming to the OOA diver....this is obvious to any who have dove with DIR divers.....In the DaleC zombie example, there was almost zero vis, so you would be "seeing" no other teams, and the diver OOA had already attacked and TAKEN the air supply of the DIR diver in question.
So what is your beef with this?

Are you miffed that we would not dive in a zero vis pit with 30 non-skilled divers all around us, at 140 feet deep?

Also you say that some problems have not ever happened. There are so many dives that have went south, that are not mentioned on the internet. So you have not a clue how many Dir divers have made mistakes.

So you like the "make up stuff it's easier" strategy discussed in this thread earlier.
Makes it easy to ignore you, if this is the way you want to play

 

[DaleC]

I understand the difference between the two and was only using the language present already in the thread.

I also used common local diving conditions and two real people as examples so as not to have to "invent" zombies or unrealistic conditions.

I'm also not out to bash anyone. I dive a Hogarthian rig myself so that would seem self defeating.

I was merely trying to point out that, when you can't find fault with the equipment, perse, but then have to resort to the fact that untrained/irrational divers could make it failure prone, the same potential exists with many other rigs; even the one being used as a main counterpoint.

But of course, no one has really focussed on that. Instead they continue to insist that conditions would be different for them due to training and team selection and that such a failure would therefore never occur.

If that is the case, the AIR2 user can make the same claim.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

Dan, you said a DIR diver will see diver coming over to take air, that's how there trained.

Sorry Pal, Dir diver will get his air pulled when a diver comes at him, from behind, above, below. There is no way that a DIR diver will always see a diver coming for air.


Further more if Dir divers use an Air2, then you would not teach a DIR diver to always be aware of divers in your area, I mean really, you teach DIR divers to just look at all the divers, and know what they are going to do next. Now that seems to be just fun to do on a dive.

The navy seals, and navy divers that I run into out on the water, are not even close to your way of thinking, they know like most, that anything can happen instantly. You have to be open for a decision change in a split second.


The Air2 is a good choice for air, it is always close and easy to get when needed, there has been good points brought on this thread, and I see a pattern of how all divers have learned of these, and still on this subject it has brought on some new and interesting convo.

Mcguiver, I told you at start, this is a great first post, and to get Dir involved was a good Idea, to see how different views are brought upon.

And Dan, what is it, you have to put down a big rugby person, and he has no brains, these are the things that kill leadership in you, People are DIR divers no matter what there occupation is.

 

[TSandM]

You know, Dan really is right (and Dan is a really nice guy IRL -- you guys have no idea!) I dive with new divers and with visiting divers of all flavors . . . but I don't do high risk dives, or any dives that push my own personal limits, with people who aren't trained the way I am -- with a few exceptions for folks I have done lesser dives with and feel totally comfortable with (some of whom probably ought to refuse to dive with ME ). However, a very low viz dive does not qualify as a "pushing the edge of the envelope" dive for me, because our local sites (and the shallow ones are worse) are often very low viz situations, and those sites are often shared with divers of all experience levels and types of training.

IF someone got close enough to me to steal my necklace -- and I have an extremely hard time envisioning that, because if they come at me from anywhere in the front, I'm going to see them and have my primary out to offer, and if they come at me from the back, they can't SEE my necklaced regulator to grab it -- it will come out of the fisherman's knot necklace, and they'll have a primary on a 24" hose to breathe, just like the person who went OOA to his Air2 buddy who hasn't changed his primary hose out. It's not a comfortable position to be in, but you're not going to die from it. I did a couple of eye-to-eye ascents with my husband, when we had our Air2s and were practicing. I did not enjoy them and decided I wanted to change my gear, but we got through them okay.

People who put their bungie through a ziptie, and particularly those who put it through the same ziptie that holds the mouthpiece on, have a bit more of a problem, which is why I don't rig my backup that way. If the bungie won't come out and the mouthpiece doesn't come off, the OOA diver just can't access the regulator, in which case I'm desperately trying to stuff my primary in his mouth. I've got time to do that, because I know I can swim at least 75 feet, in doubles, with no regulator in my mouth, because I've had to do it in training. If the OOA diver is so panicked that he can't perceive a regulator being offered to him, we have a much bigger problem than what my gear configuration is, and things are unlikely to end well.

And Bob, thank you for that excellent post. Gear doesn't make the diver; DIR is much more of a mindset than an equipment configuration, and situational awareness is HAMMERED into us (in my case, almost literally).

 

[BennyM]

I suppose that the good DIR folks dive only in places with 100' visibility so that they can see all that is coming at them and be ready for it. I wonder how they do in places that have Braille diving. Perhaps DIR folks have x-ray vision too.

Do DIR folks enjoy diving at all? Do they look at and enjoy fish and the marine life around them or are they on permanent standby to save the world U/W?

 

[VooDooGasMan]

Dale I understood it completely, Dan may not like I do not agree with his way of diving, and how he has to put it in a ugly way of Zombies, Big rugby divers and so forth.


And yes sir dale, the Air2 user can make the same claim.

 

[DaleC]

Dans claim that DIR divers have a higher degree of training and team cohesiveness would have held more weight several (?) years ago but with the mainstreaming of DIR into agencies and the continued promotion of it for recreational diving there could be some unintended consequences.

Before, most DIR divers would have been committed to the complete regime, advanced technical divers and probably would have stuck to rule #1. Not so now. DIR has become the "new black" and many recreational divers are keen to adopt it without really understanding the full implications of the system. The first tangible thing most everyone does is adopt the gear, many times before the training. A short stay in the DIR forum shows anyone that.

We've all seen how recreational level divers are continually advised to consider the DIR approach to their diving. Many of them probably begin the process but how many see it through to completion? Half trained, half configured... Good practices result, true, but the potentiality for error also rises with increased promotion.

These same divers also are far more likely to dive with non DIR trained divers, either as buddies or in close proximity at local dive sites or on charters. The potential for untrained donors and untrained recipients in an airshare continues to increase the more DIR moves from a situationally based group to a mainstream agency (ies). That's not just me talking, it's the common complaint by older adherants regarding the watering down of the regime that is heard on the board quite often.

Continue to think DIR training makes one invincible if you want but the recent tragedy at WKP should serve as a good reminder of the dangers of not examining the facts because the outcome seems obvious.

 

[TSandM]

How did this thread become a diatribe against DIR diving?

People inadequately trained and practiced are going to do poorly with ANY gear configuration in an emergency.

"DIR" refers to (or ought to be reserved for) divers who have not only adopted the gear configuration, but have adopted the practices, including training and practice with their gear. Although I still think the scenario of someone mugging a Hog rigged diver for his necklace reg is contrived, it's a scenario that can be managed, just as having someone rip the primary reg out of the mouth of a traditionally geared diver can be managed. People who are uncomfortable underwater and haven't refreshed their skills are going to be in trouble in emergencies . . . that's the bottom line.

And yes, DIR divers dive in low viz -- I already said that in my post. If the viz is truly zero, how is some random OOA diver going to know I HAVE a regulator on a necklace? And we do have fun -- having strong personal diving skills frees up a lot of bandwidth to look around and be aware of your environment. And we're taught to do frequent checks on where we are, where our buddies are, and what's happening in the environment, so it really is likely that we'll perceive someone coming toward us in distress. You just have to go through the training (where every lapse in awareness is rewarded by the instructor creating a failure to rub it in) to understand that you can be taught to keep track of things around you, without losing any of the fun of diving -- in fact, it increases it.