Why breathe from a long hose?

[bowlofpetunias]

Interesting thread and food for thought thanks everyone!

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Your sarcasm just displays that you have missed the point and I never have made any such comparison. I simply stated that air sharing with standard length hoses and octos is not unsafe nor very hard to manage, but thanks for playing.

No offense intended but digging in on an issue like this is hard for many divers to fathom.

No one is saying that using a standard lenght octo is "unsafe", anymore than the original octo promoters said buddy breathing was "unsafe".

While the short hose octo is not "unsafe", it is antiquated and the long hose primary/dontate the primary approach is both easier to use and gives divers more options and more capability in real world scenarios. More importantly, it is easier, and I would argue much safer, in situations where one or both of the divers may not have practiced an air share lately. That is in the fact exactly the argument that was used to promote the octo and the reason the octo was adopted as standard practice along with, and eventually in place of, buddy breathing.

I am confident that in 10 years the long hose primary will be standard - 5' for recreational diving rather than the current 7' used for overhead diving. What will still be optional is whether the diver wears the octo/backup on a bungee under the neck or on a normal 36" hose. The sad part is that it will take 10 years to get there and lives will be lost in the interim.

I am confident of the eventual move to the long hose primary for four reasons:

1. It works better in real world OOAs, especially when you consider that in most real world scenarios, the OOA diver goes for the primary anyway. (At a minimum we should be teaching "dontate the primary" now.)
2. The only arguments against the long hose primary are institutional inertia and the opinions of die hards who refuse to try or consider it and in effect are holding the sport back.
3. I have yet to practice an air share with an OW diver in a realistric scenario who did not go out and get their own long hose shortly afterward.
4. I know many divers who have converted to a long hose configuration, but I don't know a single one who ever went back and that speaks volumes.

In the case of recent OW divers they are usually awed by the ease of air share and the greater feeling of security as the reg does not feel like it is at risk of being pulled from their mouth - a fear most develop during their OW training. This is a very important point as if you talk to many very new OW divers, many will state that in shallow water (15-20'), they are more fearful of sharing gas than they are of a CESA and would potentially do the latter even if their buddy were right next to them. That is an incredibily unsafe approach, especially with a new and/or semi-panicked diver. That tendency is reversed if a long hose is involved. Consequently, a long hose would in more cases promote gas sharing rather than a CESA in OOA situations, and would also promote gas sharing to proactively on ascent prevent a complete OOA during ascent in low gas situations.

Personally, I think unless a diver has tried a long hose in the real world and has practiced gas sharing in some realistic real world OOA scenarios, they really don't have an informed opinion on the issue.

 

[Geoff_H]

Personally, I think unless a diver has tried a long hose in the real world and has practiced gas sharing in some realistic real world OOA scenarios, they really don't have an informed opinion on the issue.

As usual, everything you say is absolutely spot on.

 

[TSandM]

Nice post, DAA.

I was thinking about this topic last night, and it occurred to me that people who are really worried about donating the primary and being left without a regulator in their mouth may actually be revealing a bit of anxiety about losing a regulator. I know that when I was a new diver, I would rush through drills because I didn't like being without a reg. I think everybody should practice switching regulators until they are comfortable doing it, no matter WHAT kind of configuration you are using, because you can't predict that someone needing gas will wait politely until you can get your octo to them, AND you can't predict when something will happen to your primary and you will need to self-rescue (breathing wet, losing mouthpiece, etc.) If you are comfortable with and have practiced regulator exchange, then donating the primary should be a non-event.

 

[Web Monkey]

You're just playing with semantics, and it's wrong to boot.

Some very good examples of where I can ascend to the surface but prefer not to:

* diving underneath boat traffic or potential boat traffic
* diving along the coast with limited exit points and surge/swell on the surface
* diving on a open ocean dive with an anchor line to the boat

I can directly ascend in any one of these, but I would prefer not to as I could be a victim of an idiot jetskier slalom'ing around my SMB, struggle to swim back without being washed out/slammed against rocks or risk drifting and not being picked up by the boat.

I think it's absolutely amazing that any time someone mentions other equipment possibilities, people jump up with reasons why that type of equipment is completely unsuited for SCUBA, even if it happens to hold a huge market share and works just fine for it's intended purpose.

First, there is no need to attempt to convert me to a "long hose user" since I actually have one and like it.

Second, a short hose works just fine when used by Open Water divers who are following their training. Air sharing as taught in OW class requires a direct ascent to the surface, not swimming back to the boat, not finding a nice place on the shore and certainly not swimming under an active shipping lane. If the divers are following their training and depth limits, they'll be sharing air for approximately two minutes while ascending directly to the surface, although a minute or less is more likely.

You and the others can spend all day finding cases where a direct ascent to the surface isn't possible (or simply more dangerous), however as disagreeable as it sounds, this means the dive is not Open Water and the minimal gas planning taught in most OW classes (as well as what's built into most computers) is no longer useful. Gas planning, not the size of your hose becomes the primary issue.

The predictable knee-jerk responses are funny and at the same time a little sad.

Terry

 

[Geoff_H]

I think it's absolutely amazing that any time someone mentions other equipment possibilities, people jump up with reasons why that type of equipment is completely unsuited for SCUBA, even if it happens to hold a huge market share and works just fine for it's intended purpose.

Nice strawman. Feel free to knock over an argument that I wasn't advocating if it makes you feel really good.

You and the others can spend all day finding cases where a direct ascent to the surface isn't possible (or simply more dangerous), however as disagreeable as it sounds, this means the dive is not Open Water and the minimal gas planning taught in most OW classes (as well as what's built into most computers) is no longer useful.

Absolute crap.

 

[Brewski]

I see many references stating that standard reg configurations are only suitable for direct ascents to the surface. this isn't true.
From the PADI OW class confined water dive 3;
5. Respond to air depletion by signaling out of air, then securing and breathing
from an alternate air source supplied by a buddy for at least one minute while
swimming underwater.

The way I teach this skill is to have the receiver swim over the doners right shoulder. left hand on the doners first stage.
Admittedly this isn't as easy as swimming side by side with a long hose, but you do not have to ascend directly to the surface if that isn't the best choice.
I assume this idea comes from the open water dive where the students ascend while sharing air. In my opinion if you need to share air the dive is over, you should be returning to the surface, anyway, if that requires swimming to an anchor line, under boat channels, or under Kelp it can be done with the standard configuration.

 

[Web Monkey]

I was thinking about this topic last night, and it occurred to me that people who are really worried about donating the primary and being left without a regulator in their mouth may actually be revealing a bit of anxiety about losing a regulator.

Absolutely.

Without trying to sound like a broken record (or scratched CD), it's a training issue. If someone isn't comfortable removing/purging/retrieving/switching regs in class, they're absolutely not going to want to do it on an actual dive.

Terry

 

[btroxell]

Nice post, DAA.
I was thinking about this topic last night, and it occurred to me that people who are really worried about donating the primary and being left without a regulator in their mouth may actually be revealing a bit of anxiety about losing a regulator.

That is not the case for me; I am comfortable pulling the reg out of my mouth. As I stated in my original post, the main tenet I have been taught (and believe) is that your safety is #1. Removing the regulator from your mouth does not make you safer.
So far I have had no problems using my octo on a 40" hose and yes, we have swam around while using it. A longer hose would have made it a little easier but the 40" hose was acceptable. But those times were not emergencies and I can see where a longer hose would have advantages.
I'm still not convinced that donating a primary is they way I want to go but I will probably lengthen my octo's hose to 5'.

Ben

 

[Cave Diver]

That is not the case for me; I am comfortable pulling the reg out of my mouth. As I stated in my original post, the main tenet I have been taught (and believe) is that your safety is #1. Removing the regulator from your mouth does not make you safer.
So far I have had no problems using my octo on a 40" hose and yes, we have swam around while using it. A longer hose would have made it a little easier but the 40" hose was acceptable. But those times were not emergencies and I can see where a longer hose would have advantages.
I'm still not convinced that donating a primary is they way I want to go but I will probably lengthen my octo's hose to 5'.

Ben

The problem with this statement is that often, leaving the primary in your mouth may not be your choice. A panicked, OOA diver, will in all likelihood not consult you on your preference.

If you've practiced donating a primary, then you will be more comfortable if this situation occurs which may in fact, make you safer.

Regardless of which way you choose to dive, practicing donation and air sharing in your preferred configuration is important.