Whose fault is it when an accident happens?

[daniel f aleman]

FWIW - in the NAUI program, the diving instruction stops at Master Diver ... ... Bob (Grateful Diver)

One should know how to dive within recreational limits when achieving the NAUI Master Diver rating.

 

[Abbo]

it was something like 129ft -39SI - 111ft - 2hourSI- 93ft - 25SI - 86ft.

You give us the max depths and SIs without ABTs, run times or knowledge of the mix (Nitrox32, I would have thought) so it is a little difficult to be sure. Understandably: you probably don't have them. However, I'd guess they went into deco on dives 2 and 4: that's not a crime in itself - the crime is taking a risk without being aware of it, and without planning for it. Rule nought in teaching is let the students do it themselves, and tell them it's their responsibility, but surreptitiously check everything they do. If I caught students planning a profile like this I would have them drop what they were doing and get back in the lecture room: then I'd read them the riot act - change your attitude or you're out. AOW divers should know better than this. The instructor was away with the pixies.

The trouble with single tank, pretty fish diving is that it is multi-level sawtooth, rather than a safer - and easier to model - square profile. In my opinion, the dive agencies should teach dive computers rigorously in O/W class and make them a requirement for beginners. They should make sure everybody knows what to do if they accidentally end up doing a deco dive: don't panic - just follow the instructions. In a driving test, failing to look in the mirror every 8 seconds is a prima facie cause for failing the test: failing to look at your computer every 30 seconds is the same in diving. Tables should be a higher level skill with a course of their own: too many people find those tables hard to understand on repeat dives, and too few people take tables on the dive, so they are unable to allow for changes to the plan.

 

[Abbo]

2ble send: can't delete

 

[Mako Mark]

Normally a PADI instructor would have several DMs along, sometimes assigning a DM to each buddy pair, to make sure this tragedy does not happen.

In fifteen years of teaching I have virtually never had DM's along, they get in the way, they divide the students attention and this leads to less control over the group

.

 

[ArcticDiver]

Bent means too deep for too long, or back up too fast. These are basic training issues, combined with choices about aggressive profiles. I would simply say the diver was probably pushing the envelope of safety too far. That is probaby due to lack of experience.

While philosophically true; not even close to a practical, knowledgeable answer.

The fact is that people diving "conservative", mainline profiles get bent. There are other factors at play than simply depth and time. It is the interplay between all the factors, some of which we may not even know about, that affects the human body.

Dive profiles are merely models that purport to provide a reasonable approximation of what a diver should do to make the dive as safe from the effects of depth and gas on the human body. Most of the time they are reasonably accurate and result in an enjoyable dive. But, some times they aren't and an incident or accident results.

 

[grazie42]

And people accept it without question. It does sound reasonable.

Lets question it though shall we? Looking at the PADI OW, AOW and DM standards there is no real test of diving ability beyond the technique required of an OW student. The DM couse requires those same skills to demonstration quality but it's common to do all that kneeling and it certainly isn't in a diving context.

I don´t want to nit-pick or anything but in my recent PADI DM-class "hover" was one of those skills that were required to be "demonstration quality" (and it was in the pre-printed PADI-form so not a local "invention"), I think air-share and some other skill was required to be done neutral as well. I think a few of the people in my DM-class never achieved this (not that I saw anyways) but maybe they managed to to good enough to earn a "3" at some point(?)...

I´m not sure that you can excuse poor dive-skills by saying that the dm/instr. or whoever "teaches well". Diving is as much a practical activity as anything else and like other such activities (mechanics, carpenters etc come to mind) it is expected that the teacher has in fact "mastered" the skills he is trying to impart on students. Propably because so many such skills need to be "shown" instead of "explained". How do you teach someone to hover if you can´t do it yourself? You need to see the bar before you can reach it...

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don´t want to nit-pick or anything but in my recent PADI DM-class "hover" was one of those skills that were required to be "demonstration quality" (and it was in the pre-printed PADI-form so not a local "invention"), I think air-share and some other skill was required to be done neutral as well. I think a few of the people in my DM-class never achieved this (not that I saw anyways) but maybe they managed to to good enough to earn a "3" at some point(?)...

Yes a hover is required but it's a hover in any position. It's not much of a test of diving skill.

I´m not sure that you can excuse poor dive-skills by saying that the dm/instr. or whoever "teaches well". Diving is as much a practical activity as anything else and like other such activities (mechanics, carpenters etc come to mind) it is expected that the teacher has in fact "mastered" the skills he is trying to impart on students. Propably because so many such skills need to be "shown" instead of "explained". How do you teach someone to hover if you can´t do it yourself? You need to see the bar before you can reach it...

Yes, leadership courses (DM and instructor) assume that you have already learned to dive. Great, now read the OW, AOW and rescue standards. Most of it can be done crawling.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don´t want to nit-pick or anything but in my recent PADI DM-class "hover" was one of those skills that were required to be "demonstration quality" (and it was in the pre-printed PADI-form so not a local "invention"), I think air-share and some other skill was required to be done neutral as well. I think a few of the people in my DM-class never achieved this (not that I saw anyways) but maybe they managed to to good enough to earn a "3" at some point(?)...

Yes a hover is required but it's a hover in any position. It's not much of a test of diving skill.

I´m not sure that you can excuse poor dive-skills by saying that the dm/instr. or whoever "teaches well". Diving is as much a practical activity as anything else and like other such activities (mechanics, carpenters etc come to mind) it is expected that the teacher has in fact "mastered" the skills he is trying to impart on students. Propably because so many such skills need to be "shown" instead of "explained". How do you teach someone to hover if you can´t do it yourself? You need to see the bar before you can reach it...

Yes, leadership courses (DM and instructor) assume that you have already learned to dive. Great, now read the OW, AOW and rescue standards. That's where you see what they're really expected to be able to do...and it sure isn't "expert".

 

[grazie42]

Yes a hover is required but it's a hover in any position. It's not much of a test of diving skill.

I have a hard time seeing how people would have trouble adding forward propulsion, once they have mastered hovering, all it takes are a few fin-flicks (?) Even if they choose to hover in lotus (which seems inordinately popular), going horizontal and doing a few fin-kicks shouldn´t be that hard once you´ve established neutral bouyancy...

 

[Ayisha]

Even if they choose to hover in lotus (which seems inordinately popular)

What is hovering in "lotus"?