Whose fault is it when an accident happens?

[nereas]

I understand that each situation is different. I also agree that divers have the greatest responsibility when getting in and out of the water. First, allow me to clear up the details of the specific situation that brought up the conversation. Second, lets think about the more global issue of rising diving incidents.

The scenario is as follows. Two overwieght about 40ish female northern cold water divers are in the carribean. They have about forty dives and are certified rescue divers. They were certified with some combination of SDI/PADI training. In an attempt to further their knowledge and not exceed their comfort zone take a private advanced deep diving course with the resort shop. I may be not exact on their profile but it was something like 129ft -39SI - 111ft - 2hourSI- 93ft - 25SI - 86ft. The dive instructor a fit fit twenty something on that second dive admitted to other staff that she could not help him because she was" ten seconds from being in decompression and on the line for 10 minutes" The diver who got bent dove the day before also below 80 feet on both dives and her computer showed it as a six dive day. her computer locked out on an diving error. She was not sure when. They dove with cobra computers that gave diver attention symbols in the logbook on the 2nd and fourth dive. She was diving nitrox and set the computer accordingly. However, when asked they admitted that they knew of tables but never learned them and also did not learn their computer as part of instruction or know it very well. That diver is ok. luckily she learned the symptoms and went to chamber early. She can't dive for a few months but still has a passion for the sport.

Now there is a specific situation. But in a more general sense are divers getting hurt because... Divers are older and lesss in shape than any other time in the history of the sport ... or instructors are being pushed to condense or skip valuable information and push a sale ... or agencies are sacrificing quality education to dumb down the sport and increase profits.

It looks like the surface intervals were way too short. Some boats pressure divers to get back into the water too soon. Whereas other boats are careful not to.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Gas management, and SAC rates are covered in PADI OW. Maybe not as well as some would like, but they are there, and our OW instructor did go over them as part of the dive planning. It was one of the things he really took some time to discuss in our OW classroom.

SAC is mentioned in the PADI AOW course but there is no class in the normal required course progression that includes anything that could be considered gas management. It amounts to "watch your guage".

 

[Web Monkey]

Normally a PADI instructor would have several DMs along, sometimes assigning a DM to each buddy pair, to make sure this tragedy does not happen.

Wouldn't that be a clue that the divers aren't ready for the dive?

Terry

 

[MikeFerrara]

The literature on diving normally refer to instructors as expert divers.

And people accept it without question. It does sound reasonable.

Lets question it though shall we? Looking at the PADI OW, AOW and DM standards there is no real test of diving ability beyond the technique required of an OW student. The DM couse requires those same skills to demonstration quality but it's common to do all that kneeling and it certainly isn't in a diving context.

I was never a course director and I don't have the IDC standards but from my own experience as a student in an IDC, it was right back on the knees doing the same old skills on the bottom. My diving ability was never tested. What is tested is your ability to deliver the material for some key PADI courses but mainly the OW course. You can be a pretty lousy diver and breeze right through it.

By contrast, in my IANTD instructor training I had to really dive. In fact, the first thing I had to do was prove to the IT that I could dive and they were dives to my own highest training level. Unfortunately I've run across a few IANTD instructors who weren't so good in the water either so something is going wrong there too.

but no, I see no justification to see "recreational diving instructor" as any kind of synonym fir "expert diver". In fact, I think one of the issues here is that we have the blind leading the blind. you can become an instructor after being certified for 6 months and 100 dives. This is NOT an expert diver.

 

[nereas]

And people accept it without question. It does sound reasonable.

Lets question it though shall we? Looking at the PADI OW, AOW and DM standards there is no real test of diving ability beyond the technique required of an OW student. The DM couse requires those same skills to demonstration quality but it's common to do all that kneeling and it certainly isn't in a diving context.

I was never a course director and I don't have the IDC standards but from my own experience as a student in an IDC, it was right back on the knees doing the same old skills on the bottom. My diving ability was never tested. What is tested is your ability to deliver the material for some key PADI courses but mainly the OW course. You can be a pretty lousy diver and breeze right through it.

By contrast, in my IANTD instructor training I had to really dive. In fact, the first thing I had to do was prove to the IT that I could dive and they were dives to my own highest training level. Unfortunately I've run across a few IANTD instructors who weren't so good in the water either so something is going wrong there too.

but no, I see no justification to see "recreational diving instructor" as any kind of synonym fir "expert diver". In fact, I think one of the issues here is that we have the blind leading the blind. you can become an instructor after being certified for 6 months and 100 dives. This is NOT an expert diver.

I will agree that IANTD is more rigorous than PADI, at the instructor level. But then, look what it stands for ...

International Association of Nitrox and Technical Divers.

The grandfather of all the tech agencies!

So give PADI a break. You're compating tech with recreational. Sheesh!

BTW, recently PADI has added a tech module as well, as had NAUI. I have not yet heard if SSI is doing so as well.

An instructor from any agency would clearly meet the criteria of an expert.

 

[Colliam7]

but no, I see no justification to see "recreational diving instructor" as any kind of synonym fir "expert diver".

Mike was observed, in another thread, to be 'an ornery cuss' at times. So he might seem to be here. But, he makes a very valid point. Being an Open Water Scuba Instructor is not necessarily synonymous with being an expert diver, with any agency.

My diving ability was never tested. What is tested is your ability to deliver the material for some key PADI courses but mainly the OW course.

That is a fair and accurate summary. The goal of instructor development is not expertise as a diver, but expertise, or at least effectiveness, as a teacher of diving - the ability to communicate lessons in an educationally valid and effective manner. PADI, for one, makes no secret of this. The role of the instructor, not as an 'expert' but as a facilitator of student diver learning, is made very clear from the beginning of IDC.

But, folks, diving is not alone in this situation. I see newbie flight instructors, fresh from their Florida (or Georgia, or Arizona) CFI mill, who are by no means expert pilots. But, they can fly the plane from the right seat, and they can prepare some really good lesson plans. And, they passed the written exam, and they can do the commercial pilot manuevers.

Pick any discipline, and you will see similarities. What qualifies a driving instructor as an expert driver? Absence of moving violations? I think not.

By contrast, in my IANTD instructor training I had to really dive. In fact, the first thing I had to do was prove to the IT that I could dive and they were dives to my own highest training level. Unfortunately I've run across a few IANTD instructors who weren't so good in the water either so something is going wrong there too.

And that is the challenge we face (running across instrucors from agencies we think highly of, who may not be very good in the water, at least in our opinion), and one of the reasons I am increasingly reluctant to suggest marked differences among agencies, at least at the OW level. I have seen instructors from PADI, SSI, NAUI (yes, even from IANTD) who are VERY good, as instructors, and in the water as divers. And, I have seen examples from each agency, and from others, that were not very good in either sense.

 

[nereas]

Mike was observed, in another thread, to be 'an ornery cuss' at times. So he might seem to be here. But, he makes a very valid point. Being an Open Water Scuba Instructor is not necessarily synonymous with being an expert diver, with any agency.

That is a fair and accurate summary. The goal of instructor development is not expertise as a diver, but expertise, or at least effectiveness, as a teacher of diving - the ability to communicate lessons in an educationally valid and effective manner. PADI, for one, makes no secret of this. The role of the instructor, not as an 'expert' but as a facilitator of student diver learning, is made very clear from the beginning of IDC.

But, folks, diving is not alone in this situation. I see newbie flight instructors, fresh from their Florida (or Georgia, or Arizona) CFI mill, who are by no means expert pilots. But, they can fly the plane from the right seat, and they can prepare some really good lesson plans. And, they passed the written exam, and they can do the commercial pilot manuevers.

Pick any discipline, and you will see similarities. What qualifies a driving instructor as an expert driver? Absence of moving violations? I think not.

And that is the challenge we face (running across instrucors from agencies we think highly of, who may not be very good in the water, at least in our opinion), and one of the reasons I am increasingly reluctant to suggest marked differences among agencies, at least at the OW level. I have seen instructors from PADI, SSI, NAUI (yes, even from IANTD) who are VERY good, as instructors, and in the water as divers. And, I have seen examples from each agency, and from others, that were not very good in either sense.

After you go through an ITC/IDC you may then have more data and experience on which to base your opinion.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I will agree that IANTD is more rigorous than PADI, at the instructor level. But then, look what it stands for ...

International Association of Nitrox and Technical Divers.

The grandfather of all the tech agencies!

So give PADI a break. You're compating tech with recreational. Sheesh!

No I'm comparing "recreational" with "recreational". I was a IANTD Advanced nitrox instructor meaning that I could teach all their "sport diver" (not considered by them to be technical) courses. There are some marked differences in student requirements though both at the entry level and at the instructor level.

BTW, recently PADI has added a tech module as well, as had NAUI. I have not yet heard if SSI is doing so as well.

SSI did too. It's gotten popular enough now that just about everybody is in it.

An instructor from any agency would clearly meet the criteria of an expert.

Well, I agree with Colliam. An instructor has been taugh to teach the agencies courses. You need to look a little further to see if they've really been taught to dive.

 

[AXL72]

...i would like to think that if an accident happens that the primary concern is to aid in the victims recovery...

OK, I meant to say what steve posted. I am just not as well versed and focused as he is.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

After you go through an ITC/IDC you may then have more data and experience on which to base your opinion.

Why? His opinion seems pretty valid to me. I've been through a NAUI ITC, and while I think my CD did a bang-up job of teaching me how to be an instructor, he didn't even attempt to teach me anything about diving ... he went on the assumption that I already knew that part.

FWIW - in the NAUI program, the diving instruction stops at Master Diver ... after that, the DM and Instructor courses focus on leadership skills, not diving skills.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)