Whose fault is it when an accident happens?

[MikeFerrara]

Then you take these divers out from the platforms to do "dives" and run into all sorts of buoyancy related issues. You got one diver overweighted having a runaway ascent and another diver decending rapidly. An instructor over here chasing this one and the divemaster chasing another while a third comes up to you 'cause he's low on air.

This is from personal experience. I see it all the time. And yes, as a Divemaster I can only do so much as an assistant.

I blame this on Instruction. Most of it could have been fixed IN A POOL before OW.

Needless to say, as a DM and as an instructor I had the same type of experiences many times and I've witnessed the classes of other instructors doing the same at dive sites pretty much all over a good portion of the country. In the beginning I expected it and thought it was completely normal because that's all I had ever seen. It really is amazing how much it took to change my thinking.

LOL you all know how I harp on being midwater and learning midwatewr skills, right? There was a time when I about had a knock down drag out with a DM candidate because he was demonstrating mask R&R midwater and I wanted him on the bottom. When he asked why, I explained that I wanted him to demonstrate it the way I wanted students to do it. LOL, I hadn't yet considered why I should really want the student on the bottom.

When I first started teaching I had a well seasoned DM working with me. Once I was leading an OW class on a tour (pack diving) with the DM bringing up the rear. Vis wasn't so good (I wonder why) and I couldn't see all the way back to the DM so I stopped to make sure everyone was there. When I stopped, some shot to the surface and some plowed into the bottom and then I couldn't see anybody.

Later the DM pulled me to the side and suggested that I keep OW tours moving and NEVER stop. It really was quite a while and quite a few students later before I ever started thinking that there was something wrong with this concept. Again, it's all I had ever seen.

When my wife first started DMing she HATED to go into OW with students. She'd do almost anything to get assigned another job. Of course she hadn't been diving all that long either and it hadn't been very long since she stopped shooting to the surface. She used to disappear all the time. I'd look over and she'd be gone again. I always knew where she was though...at the surface. I'd see she was gone, stop, look up and wait for her to come back down. What a monster cluster.

Once we were in Arkansas visiting family and we went for a dive with my cousin. I'd have to check my log but I'm pretty sure my wife was a rescue diver by then. He was in front leading (we didn't know how team members should be positioned either). My wife shot to the surface and niether my cousin or I noticed. My wife came plumiting back down on top of me smashing me down into the bottom almost cracking my skull. She got off of me and took up position along side me but my cousin turned around just in time to see me literally climbing up out of the bottom in a giant cloud of silt. He's still trying to get me to tell him what I was really doing. LOL

 

[AbyssalPlains]

the buck stops with the diver when the wetsuit hits the water-

Awesome!!!!

Now we know what President Truman really meant to say:
"The buck stops here - I'm goin' divin'!"

(This tradition was later known to be perpetuated by Colin Powell, in his March 2003 speech about WMDs, when he addressed the UN by saying: "That, my friends, is the way the cookie crumbles. And we will be prepared for the day the wetsuit hits the water."

 

[ArcticDiver]

Before we get too far off into the philosophical maybe a return to the original post would be in order.

OP "So when divers on our boat under direct instruction came up bent. The question arose who is to blame?"

First of all there isn't enough information in the post about the event. You say they were "bent". What level class? The situation would be different if it were a entry level class or an advanced class.

Next, did they dive the planned profile? The fact is that people do get DCS when diving a profile where, by calculation, they should not have. We just don't understand all the vagaries involved with diving and their effect on the human body.

For example: If this were a dive profile well withing normal limits and no one varied outside those limits and the divers were "bent" then no one was at fault. The event was one that could be expected as part of the risks of diving.

If, on the other hand, this were a new subject to the divers and the instructor planned and executed a training dive that was outside a "normal" dive the fact that a student was "bent" would be an instructor fault. A student can only be expected to perform well within his skill set. No student can be, or should be, expected to recognize and respond appropriately to events that are outside their training or experience.

So, this may have been Just One Of Those Things that is inherent with our sport. Or, it may have been the Instructor's Fault. Or, it may have been the Student's Fault. You don't provide enough information to tell.

 

[nereas]

My dive buddies and i have just returned from a relaxing dive trip without incident. We planned our dive and dove our plan. After hundreds of dives together and instructor certifications we still periodically asked if the others were ok and how much air we had. We agree that diving as a task is not difficult. We also agree we had excellent instruction from instructors who answered to an agency with rigorous standards. So when divers on our boat under direct instruction came up bent. The question arose who is to blame? When Gilboa quarry has not changed its profile but incidents and accidents are at all time high, who is to blame. The divers, instructors and agencies all have a stake in each sucessful dive, but when something goes wrong does the blame go up the chain? We have argued alot about this what do you think?

Instructors are considered expert divers, but even they get into trouble, sometimes, when they choose extremely challenging conditions. Students sometimes turn out to be the most hazardous element to instructors. So no one is exempt from accidents, not even instructors.

Ultimately, the diver alone is responsible. But sometimes the elements themselves change, either the sea, or the current, or an unrelated nearby diver, etc. If there was no way of knowing that something was brewing, then you cannot blame the diver, other than to say he/she took a risk, and it proved overwhelming.

I personally do not know of any instructors who have gotten into any kind of difficulty scuba diving, however you can read about it happening somewhere around the world every year.

 

[nereas]

Before we get too far off into the philosophical maybe a return to the original post would be in order.

OP "So when divers on our boat under direct instruction came up bent. The question arose who is to blame?"

First of all there isn't enough information in the post about the event. You say they were "bent". What level class? The situation would be different if it were a entry level class or an advanced class.

Next, did they dive the planned profile? The fact is that people do get DCS when diving a profile where, by calculation, they should not have. We just don't understand all the vagaries involved with diving and their effect on the human body.

For example: If this were a dive profile well withing normal limits and no one varied outside those limits and the divers were "bent" then no one was at fault. The event was one that could be expected as part of the risks of diving.

If, on the other hand, this were a new subject to the divers and the instructor planned and executed a training dive that was outside a "normal" dive the fact that a student was "bent" would be an instructor fault. A student can only be expected to perform well within his skill set. No student can be, or should be, expected to recognize and respond appropriately to events that are outside their training or experience.

So, this may have been Just One Of Those Things that is inherent with our sport. Or, it may have been the Instructor's Fault. Or, it may have been the Student's Fault. You don't provide enough information to tell.

Bent means too deep for too long, or back up too fast. These are basic training issues, combined with choices about aggressive profiles. I would simply say the diver was probably pushing the envelope of safety too far. That is probaby due to lack of experience.

 

[nereas]

I think we could make a strong case for the idea that the less experience one has, the greater the reliance on the experience and judgement of others. Sort of like a trust-me dive. If I get you to trust me and you take my advice, I have some responsibility because my actions have a great effect on the outcome regardless of whether or not that equates to liability.

You know what they say about hindsight? When I was a new instructor I was NOT a very experienced diver and I had almost no instructional experience. I trusted the standards and judgement of the agency and the student trusted my judgement. In hindsight, I view most of that trust to have been sadly misplaced and ill-founded.

I can say that the agency I trusted did a great job, and by following their requirements I conveyed to the students everything necessary to get them started in safe diving. After OW1, they knew how to dive to 50 fsw safely, and were ready for AWO to 100 fsw, and for a rescue class, and then nitrox. Everything takes time.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Instructors are considered expert divers,

Who considers them expert divers and what is that assumption based on? Personally, being familiar with the instructor requirements and tesating of a couple of agencies, I would never assume any such thing. In fact, with one large agency an instructor candidate never has to do much more than entry level skill while kneeling...just like OW class only prettier. Nothing at all in the testing to indicate "expert diver". An instrctor of that agency is expert on the educational system of that agency. That, and not diving ability, is what is taught and tested. That does not indicate that they are any good at diving though because diving skill is NEVER tested!

 

[MikeFerrara]

I can say that the agency I trusted did a great job, and by following their requirements I conveyed to the students everything necessary to get them started in safe diving. After OW1, they knew how to dive to 50 fsw safely, and were ready for AWO to 100 fsw, and for a rescue class, and then nitrox. Everything takes time.

That sounds great. I'd be interested in hearing more details. For example, what performance requirements consitutes being ready for AOW to 100 ft?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Sorry for the loss. However once OW certified it's up to the diver, NOT the instructor to monitor air. There was no reason not to dive as buddy teams. There was no reason not to thumb the dive at a preset PSI, which I'm betting was discussed prior to the dive.

This scenario makes a good point. Once certified, do NOT be lulled into a false sense of security because you are diving with an instructor, or DM. We as divers are responsible for our diving... period.

Sounds like two divers ignored their PSI, and their training in this incident, and there was little the Instructor could do once occupied with one OOA diver to help the rest of the group.

Normally I would agree ... but not in the case of an AOW class doing the students first deep dive. There is a lot of instructor culpability involved there.

First off it is up to the instructor to choose a dive profile that considers the available air supply for each student ... the instructor, after all, is the one who specifies the depth and time for this dive. The student can only be responsible if he or she has been shown how to determine whether their gas supply is adequate for the planned dive profile ... and how many AOW instructors teach their students how to do that?

If two out of three students are running out of air on a training dive, the instructor didn't do their job ... simple as that. There is a trust relationship there, and students are trusting the instructor to take them safely through something they have never experienced before. They don't know what they don't know ... that's what they're paying the instructor to tell them.

Gas planning involves much more than simply monitoring your air supply. Why isn't it mandatory to teach it before taking someone to ... or below ... 100 feet?

When I was a DM, I once volunteered to help an instructor take his class on the deep dive. When I arrived at the dive site, I was surprised to see three other DM's also accompanying the class. I asked the instructor why he needed so much help. His reply ... "in case the students run out of air". But he only had four students. When I commented that was a one-on-one ratio he said ... "they might all run out of air".



What kind of instruction is that?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[stevewirl]

oh my god ,
if the instructor almost expected them to rum out of air . this beeing the norm for him .
im an instructor and i hav heard of some crazy stuff going on but that is crazy crazy.

i hav a student who has taken over 50 dives and is not ready on an abbility basis . (in cmas it taks 36 dive to qualify before a test).

i hav dived with a dm in eygpt that when his mask flooded at 27 meters he shoot for the surface .
if this is the standard of a dm what has he passed on to pthers who hav dived or listened to him on the boat back to the harbour .

i hav also dived with dms that hav blown my mind away with their practical and physical abbility in the water .

I can understand people sliping through a little but not to that level .