Whose fault is it when an accident happens?

[ArcticDiver]

Being horizontal provides the greatest control. But...circumstances permitting, I don't see anything wrong with clowing around a bit just to have fun...vertical, upside down or doing loops. Personally I like to dive horizontal but on my back facing the surface in local quarries when I'm looking for paddlefish.

The problem comes in when divers are unable to control their position and just don't have a choice. Unfortunately, the training standards of some agencies do NOT teach or require that ability. Some people might find it fun to hover upside down but if that is the only way you can maintain a hover, you are in a bad way...The same is true for the lotus thing...it just isn't very handy for use when dealing with a problem when depth control is critical...even though that does meet the requirements of some agencies.

Hmmm...the latest in the judgemental posts. These and a couple others are making some assumptions that are not warranted.

Remember; it is my dive, not some body, or some agency's. As for their standards; well another thread pointed out that there are a lot of divers who never got involved with them.

Each Thinking Diver will use the things they have been taught and the things they have learned On The Job to do things the best way for them. Might not be the best for someone else; but who cares? If Team Diving both Thinking Divers will work out and agree on their procedures.


As for the original post. As I've posted before there isn't enough information to determine fault and apportion it among the participants. But, that isn't unusual I would think. After all, it appears that there is seldom a proper accident/incident investigation.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Hmmm...the latest in the judgemental posts. These and a couple others are making some assumptions that are not warranted.

What's judgemental? I stated a horizontal positions provides the most control. The fact that it provides the most control of movement in all directions is a fact and one that I am more than prepared to demonstrate for you, or anyone else, who doesn't believe it.

I also made reference to what training standards require. Again, just plain fact that can easily be verified.

Each Thinking Diver will use the things they have been taught and the things they have learned On The Job to do things the best way for them. Might not be the best for someone else; but who cares? If Team Diving both Thinking Divers will work out and agree on their procedures.

The "things they were taught and the things they have learned on the job" may or may not result in what works best for them or anyone else. In fact, the two may very well combine to make an absolute mess of things and it wouldn't be the first time we've seen that.

 

[Thalassamania]

The "things they were taught and the things they have learned on the job" may or may not result in what works best for them or anyone else. In fact, the two may very well combine to make an absolute mess of things and it wouldn't be the first time we've seen that.

And may well not include things that they were not exposed to because their instructor's, Instructors', Instructor did not know it.

 

[ArcticDiver]

What's judgemental? I stated a horizontal positions provides the most control. The fact that it provides the most control of movement in all directions is a fact and one that I am more than prepared to demonstrate for you, or anyone else, who doesn't believe it.

I also made reference to what training standards require. Again, just plain fact that can easily be verified.

The "things they were taught and the things they have learned on the job" may or may not result in what works best for them or anyone else. In fact, the two may very well combine to make an absolute mess of things and it wouldn't be the first time we've seen that.

Not facts; but your sincerely held beliefs.

That they are your beliefs does not make them writ for the rest of the diving community.

Also, you insult everyone who has, through experience, developed styles and protocols that work for them. Your comment about their on the job ability to sort out what is best for them is a further insult to the intelligence and adaptibility of divers everywhere. In fact, contrary to your comments, most divers will over time and experience develop the practices and protocols that work best for them. Those will not be an "absolute mess". They will be the best adaptation to the environment that the diver knows how to make at the time the decisions are made.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Originally Posted by MikeFerrara
What's judgemental? I stated a horizontal positions provides the most control. The fact that it provides the most control of movement in all directions is a fact and one that I am more than prepared to demonstrate for you, or anyone else, who doesn't believe it.

I also made reference to what training standards require. Again, just plain fact that can easily be verified.

The "things they were taught and the things they have learned on the job" may or may not result in what works best for them or anyone else. In fact, the two may very well combine to make an absolute mess of things and it wouldn't be the first time we've seen that.

Not facts; but your sincerely held beliefs.

That they are your beliefs does not make them writ for the rest of the diving community.

No. We're talking about something here that can be demonstrated and measured. Again, the statement, the horizontal position provides the most control over movement in all directions.

This is really simple. From a horizontal position I can move forward, backward, up down or turn to the right or left or any combination without changing position. Compare that to say...a vertical position.

Now that's not to say that no other position can ever be used but rather is a specific statement that is demonstrably correct. Yet you somehow come away withthe idea that it's judgemental or insulting to someone?

And, one more time, my statements regarding training standards were absolutely correct and verifyable.

By all means if you can somehow demonstrate that I am in error with regard to either, feel free to do so but if facts insult you, I don't know how to help.

Also, you insult everyone who has, through experience, developed styles and protocols that work for them. Your comment about their on the job ability to sort out what is best for them is a further insult to the intelligence and adaptibility of divers everywhere. In fact, contrary to your comments, most divers will over time and experience develop the practices and protocols that work best for them. Those will not be an "absolute mess". They will be the best adaptation to the environment that the diver knows how to make at the time the decisions are made.

Then, of course, I go on to say that "things they were taught and the things they have learned on the job" may or may not result in what works best for them or anyone else. Who should that insult and how? I'm not sure who you're talking about here. Maybe you should be more specific. Who are you talking about and what practices or techniques are you talking about? At the very least could you present something to support this statement

In fact, contrary to your comments, most divers will over time and experience develop the practices and protocols that work best for them. Those will not be an "absolute mess". They will be the best adaptation to the environment that the diver knows how to make at the time the decisions are made

"Most divers"? "The best adaptation"? Can you offer any support at all? It sounds like a lot of wishful thinking with some emotion thrown in to me.

 

[stevewirl]

Remember; it is my dive, not some body, or some agency's. As for their standards; well another thread pointed out that there are a lot of divers who never got involved with them.

Each Thinking Diver will use the things they have been taught and the things they have learned On The Job to do things the best way for them. Might not be the best for someone else; but who cares? If Team Diving both Thinking Divers will work out and agree on their procedures.

i agree with this if both divers are experienced and comfortable nothing wrong with enjoying a dive doing what ever we like as long as its safe

 

[ArcticDiver]

Mike; I've never met you so you may be different in person than in your posts. I certainly hope so.

In the recent post you effectively said that divers don't know what is good for themselves. That practices learned while they dive, On The Job, are a mess. Even though they think what they are doing is effective they are wrong.

Surely you don't mean that. Surely you don't mean that a diver can only learn what they are taught. Surely you don't mean that experience and the protocols and practices that flow from that experience is worthless at best and messed up as a rule. If you re-read your posts, especially the last one, you will see that is effectively what you have said.

To me, and what I have consistently said; divers will do what their training dictates until they get experience. Then they will do what works for them. What they do isn't " a mess". Nor, is it something that needs correction by someone else. Just because you, or me, or anyone else has an arguement with what they do does not mean their practices are defective in any way. Just because their practices don't conform to some agency's ideas doesn't mean they are defective. What a dive is taught is a starting point; not an end destination.

 

[stevewirl]

al agency's hav some differences it makes diving with new people all that much more different than the norm . im cmas . iv dived with padi bsac and most of the tech agency's .

its great to learn somthing new or differentand toextend our knowledge . weither it be good or bad .

 

[GrandpaScuba]

... When Gilboa quarry has not changed its profile but incidents and accidents are at all time high, who is to blame. The divers, instructors and agencies all have a stake in each sucessful dive, but when something goes wrong does the blame go up the chain? We have argued alot about this what do you think?

It might not have anything to do with the instructors, etc. It could be equipment. Use of computers is at an all-time high as well. I've seen far too many divers that are willing to push their computer right up to the "red-line" because "Hey, it's a computer and computers are always right, right?"

Because of computers, more and more divers are making deeper and longer dives than ever before. Maybe that's behind the increase in incidents.

 

[stevewirl]

true espically with non intergrated computers