Whose fault is it when an accident happens?

[scubanaked]

It is always the divers fault! After you have been certified it is up to you to get more training and do more dives. If you get certified and go on vacation in warm waters and wait a year and go to Gilboa in cold water and have cheap gear or gear not intended for colder waters and there is a problem, you or your buddy may not know might not know how to react.

It is simple, after you get your drivers license are you a good driver, or do you need more experience driving in conditions that you may have not gone over in class...rain, snow, very heavy traffic..You need experience to handle those situations. Not unlike diving. Every new diver should know that they need experience, some need more training, and they should not be cheap in either gear or in seeking additional training.

I do wonder if Gilboa should handle some of the blame, since I hear they approve dive plans....not sure why? Since you are a certified diver and a guy at a counter that has no idea of what he is doing would put himself on a limb like that, especially since he has no training and just runs the place. But its really not Gilboa's fault, since you are a certified diver. But I do find it comical that they would want to see a dive plan.

 

[TekDiveGirl]

Wow --- reviving an old thread!

Decompression tables are just theoretical models based on data taken over a set period of time on healthy athletic men. They dont guarantee you won't get bent.

People can have physical conditions that they didn't even know about until it was too late.

So I personally disagree that it is ALWAYS the divers fault!

Sometimes ***** happens to the newbies and even the most careful -- highly trained divers alike.

 

[Thalassamania]

Wow --- reviving an old thread!

Decompression tables are just theoretical models based on data taken over a set period of time on healthy athletic men. They dont guarantee you won't get bent.

People can have physical conditions that they didn't even know about until it was too late.

So I personally disagree that it is ALWAYS the divers fault!

Sometimes ***** happens to the newbies and even the most careful -- highly trained divers alike.

While the point that you're making is absolutely true the "healthy athletic men" part is an urban myth. At least one of the test groups, according to Workman was, "middle-aged, overweight, hard drinking, cigar chomping, chiefs."

 

[alibi 2]

I think that diving is a high risk sport like sky diving...Accidents can and do happen..unless an instructors does something directly to a diver that causes an injury I don't feel he should be held responsible for a divers accident...if a diver panics and shoots to the surface a dive instructor could no more stop the accident than a sky diving instructor could stop a students fall with a failed shute...

There isnt much pay in being a dive instuctor..if they have to worry about losing their homes and lives to lawsuit,,then it will probally be a dying sport as no one will teach...

personally I think we have become way to sue happy ... everyone who takes up this sport should know there is risk and accept the risks as their own responsiblity...if they (or their family)arent willing to take that risk they should look at another activity...

 

[Thalassamania]

I think that diving is a high risk sport like sky diving...Accidents can and do happen..unless an instructors does something directly to a diver that causes an injury I don't feel he should be held responsible for a divers accident...if a diver panics and shoots to the surface a dive instructor could no more stop the accident than a sky diving instructor could stop a students fall with a failed shute...

I could not disagree more. You analogy breaks down in several ways, first of all sky diving students do not die because they lack the skill to pull their ripcord, and, trust me, it is much easier to control a panicky student that wants to bolt than it is to overcome gravity. In fact if you are not observant and sensitive enough know that a student is going to bolt long before it happens you are not ready to teach diving. It does not occur, "out of the blue."

 

[Steve R]

I do wonder if Gilboa should handle some of the blame, since I hear they approve dive plans....not sure why? Since you are a certified diver and a guy at a counter that has no idea of what he is doing would put himself on a limb like that, especially since he has no training and just runs the place. But its really not Gilboa's fault, since you are a certified diver. But I do find it comical that they would want to see a dive plan.

I think it's comical as well for Mike to see and approve the dive plan.

From what I have observed, Mike doesn't know a damn thing about diving.

I give him credit for giving it the old college try though. I understand why he has to do it. Personal responsibility, insurance etc, but if he managed to save someone from killing themselves, it would by pure accident, and not much else.

Even an accidental saving is a good one though, I gotta admit.

I feel real bad for Mike. He's going into the scuba accident blame-game totally unprepared IMO, although I think he might be starting to figure it out.

The folks that could do a lot to stem this type of uneducated dive-strokery, which is what a lot of these deaths amount to, are the agencies themselves. And that's already a known lost-cause.

The agencies walk, dare I say push, people right to the edge of the cliff, give them little if any of the gear/knowledge required to get down safely, and poor Mike is left watching their forward momentum over the edge of his wall, and all he can truly say, as their toes breach the crest is "Watch that first step, it's a lulu"............ And some people dare blame him?? Holy ******, get a clue already.

I'm all for personal responsibility, but this 'anyone can do it, and do it NOW' mentality that the agencies have, and is also what they teach, are what is causing these needless situations to occur way too often. As I have been told before however, to fix this would mean financial ruin in some degree to the agencies, so that's just not going to happen.

Sad but true.

Buyer beware.

 

[Steve R]

I think that diving is a high risk sport like sky diving...Accidents can and do happen..unless an instructors does something directly to a diver that causes an injury I don't feel he should be held responsible for a divers accident...if a diver panics and shoots to the surface a dive instructor could no more stop the accident than a sky diving instructor could stop a students fall with a failed shute...

There isnt much pay in being a dive instuctor..if they have to worry about losing their homes and lives to lawsuit,,then it will probally be a dying sport as no one will teach...

personally I think we have become way to sue happy ... everyone who takes up this sport should know there is risk and accept the risks as their own responsiblity...if they (or their family)arent willing to take that risk they should look at another activity...

I agree (again) with Thal's take on this.

As far as insurance, all it really does is place a bigger target on my back. The agency doesn't give a rat's behind about that either. I'm footing the premium, and I'm taking on the lion's share of the liability that they might otherwise have.

If I could I would opt out of the premium personally.

The old story is when you ain't got nothing, you've got nothing to lose, works for me. A lawyer would take one look at me and my assets, and promptly ask their client for a retainer.........lol....

The problem here starts with uncaring and unsafe agencies. They train divers and instructors in the light that they wish them to be.......they all have QA processes that are evidently IMO empty rooms, shells or at least way understaffed by people that don't give a damn, but I can say that what good DOESN'T come out of that process goes to show where the real priorities are with them.

Being a quality instructor and requesting the same from an agency is the perfect picture of what it means to be pi$$ing up a wall.........

 

[Thalassamania]

I agree (again) with Thal's take on this.

As far as insurance, all it really does is place a bigger target on my back. The agency doesn't give a rat's behind about that either. I'm footing the premium, and I'm taking on the lion's share of the liability that they might otherwise have.

The agency's make big bucks on insurance "finder's fees" and other kickbacks. Skydiving has it right, defense only insurance, that way you're not a target and your economic wellbeing is, in fact, tied to your competence as an instructor.

 

[Steve R]

The agency's make big bucks on insurance "finder's fees" and other kickbacks. Skydiving has it right, defense only insurance, that way you're not a target and your economic wellbeing is, in fact, tied to your competence as an instructor.

Thanks for that info Thal. I had always assumed this was such with scuby-diving although I had never had anyone tell me such. It only made sense. You just have to follow the trail of crooked money.......errr, good business sense

At any rate, it still does no good whatsoever for the dead guy who was sold a bill of goods in most instances. I'm pretty sure if the folks I know of could get their dead relative back, who's life was taken on the cheap, they'd drop the right to sue in a heart-beat.

My only involvement with skydiving was falling out of C130's for the military, and, well, there's no civy insurance for that

 

[alibi 2]

I could not disagree more. You analogy breaks down in several ways, first of all sky diving students do not die because they lack the skill to pull their ripcord, and, trust me, it is much easier to control a panicky student that wants to bolt than it is to overcome gravity. In fact if you are not observant and sensitive enough know that a student is going to bolt long before it happens you are not ready to teach diving. It does not occur, "out of the blue."

I think you really misunderstand what I was saying,,I agree that most problem students show signs long before a problem...but there is still the unexpected...I have seen equipment failures blamed on instructors....what I'm am trying to say in only a few words is that this sport is demanding both physically and mentally...not everyone can do it...and accidents do happen no matter how prepared we are...ultimately it is every divers responsibility to check their equipment and make sure it is functioning properly...it is also our own responsibility to make sure we are in good health and condition to dive...I also disagree with you about the bolting student...I have seen exercises were a problem could happen and they are very controlled, one on one...on the other hand I have seen a person suddenly panic and make a uncontrolled accent in which no one was able to stop them...things do happen...I guess maybe in my 34 years of diving I've just had the opportunity to experiance some of the stranger and more unexpected happenings...