Who's your Favorite BP/W Manufacturer

[GreenDiverDown]

I can't find the part where Stephen Ash was either riled or nasty. Maybe it was moderated out.

No... my posts have not been edited. Guilt by association.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Stephen's an Oxycheq person, and Oxycheq makes some good products.

I wouldn't call myself an "Oxycheq person" but I can see how some might think so.

I'm a "back plate and wing person". I'm a "STA person".

I happen to think ALL of these products are top of the line. About the only rig that I don't think much of is the Apeks... sorry Apeks guys... no offense intended.

My favorite wing is an old Pioneer... it ain't that great compared to some of the new stuff... but I have had it forever and it is still as good as the day I bought it. It has been everywhere and I know and trust it. I own a TON and I mean a TON of Halcyon gear... three wings and several plates just for starters. I dive mostly doubles and use an Explorer for that. I think Halcyon stuff is super.

I also own An OMS single wing, STA and plate... they're great... when they're not on backorder, that is.

I brought Agir to our shop and that's what we sell. You can't ask for a nicer wing with a simple, tough, DIR design. I really like mine and I'm glad we have this rig available for our customers.

I own more DSS gear than Oxycheq stuff... 2 plates (one I gave to a good friend), 2 sets of weight plates, Hog harness and hardware and a LCD 30 wing. I even have a couple of those wrists boots. The gear is great and is without a doubt the best "STA-less" solution out there. But the "STA-less" setup really isn't my favorite.

I have at least 4 FredT plates... gotta love those... 9#, 12#, 16# and a custom for my youngest boy. The weight of the plate is what is most important to me... I pick my plate based on the requirements of my exposure suit as well as trim concerns. I don't really care about bend angles and channel depth or what kind of finish it has or whether or not it has grommets and such.

I don't own a Golem... but I wish I did. I have no doubt its a great rig.

I do own an Oxy Mach V... and it is the best wing that I have ever owned. Looking at some of the other wings in the Oxy lineup and what Patrick has coming down the pike, I suspect that I will BECOME an Oxycheq person. Halcyon seems to be sliding a little and companies like Agir, OMS, and Golem just aren't offering a variety of cutting edge options. DSS will probably never be my first choice... well not until they come out with a rig optimized for use with a STA and even then, I can't see myself ever being a DSS customer again... for obvious reasons.

 

[djanni]

Sorry, Don, I disagree with you. Not every post Tobin contributes is an advertisement for DSS. To make such a sweeping statement is unwise. Tobin has offered valuable advice, IMHO, over and over again in response to queries from a wide variety of divers. He has a wealth of experience, he's put a great deal of thought into producing items that make sense for certain technical applications, and he has been extremely responsive to both my needs as a customer as well as the needs of my entire team. And we met Tobin on TDS, not here on SB. There are many other divers I come into contact with who hold the same opinion.

Frankly Tobin's plates offer innovations that are currently not found elsewhere in the industry. And I do own one of Scott's plates, as well as a couple Halcyon plates and the FredT I spoke of earlier. My buddies dive a similarly broad mixture of different manufacturers, we've looked at the matter in some detail, and while we're not using his plates its because most of us already had our rigs together before Tobin started producing them. We use a number of his products, however, and are very happy with them. AFAIK Tobin continues to be broadly responsive to the needs of divers across a wide array of interests.

His presence on this board is extremely valuable. Should other manufacturers wish to pursue an equal presence on this board, they would be equally welcome. To date, however, with the exceptions of Oceanic and Scott Zeagle, they have not. I value Tobin's contributions and sincerely hope that he continues to participate on SB at the same level in the future.

Doc

Doc: When every post he makes ends with:

Tobin
__________________
Innovative Backplates, Wings, Harnesses and accessories

<A href="http://www.deepseasupply.com/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.deepseasupply.com

I can't imagime how anyone could say he's NOT advertising for his company and products.

He is a heavy participater and contributer by offering advice routinely. However, I would venture to say that if he didn't see his participation on this board as helpful to his business he would not participate at his current levels.

All Ash was saying if that if other manufacturers participated at the same level the distribution of support by members of this board would change and I wholeheartedly agree with that assesment.

Don

 

[cool_hardware52]

He is a heavy participater and contributer by offering advice routinely. However, I would venture to say that if he didn't see his participation on this board as helpful to his business he would not participate at his current levels.

Don,

I'm not a Polyanna, and I am a capitalist, but I do have faith in the basic goodness of people.

This list is replete with mentors and instructors who gladly offer their time and assistance to new divers, take them diving, provide free seminars etc. Do you suspect their motives also?

Have you never helped someone out without expectation of reward?

You just don't know me very well. It's satisfying to help people. I really don't give a damn what brand of gear you choose to use. If you have questions that I'm qualified to answer I'll try to help. Ever seen me refuse to help somebody that bought another brand of BP&W?

I'm confident that enough people will find my offerings attractive to make this endeavour worthwhile, it they have the facts.

Running DSS is fun. It's an outlet for my creative side, it helps me rationalize having lots of cool-hardware like 9 CNC machines and many other goodies and I get to interact with divers daily. I learn here too, SB is a great resource.

I don't have to do this. DSS is not a hobby, but I do it because I enjoy it. I'm not keeping score, I don't care who sells the most gear. World domination is not on my list of goals. As long as I can have fun, build new and interesting stuff, and meet the payroll life's good. If I can help folks along the way that's good too.


Tobin

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Doc: When every post he makes ends with:

I can't imagime how anyone could say he's NOT advertising for his company and products.

There are literally dozens of ScubaBoard members with links to their business in their signature. Most only participate on the board for the purpose of selling their products.

Tobin is in the minority in that respect ... he actually posts substance to the board, and routinely answers questions on topics that have nothing to do with purchasing his products.

He is a heavy participater and contributer by offering advice routinely. However, I would venture to say that if he didn't see his participation on this board as helpful to his business he would not participate at his current levels.

Or maybe ... like the majority of us ... he enjoys discussing his passion for scuba with like-minded individuals.

All Ash was saying if that if other manufacturers participated at the same level the distribution of support by members of this board would change and I wholeheartedly agree with that assesment.

Well, it would be simple enough to ask those who support his business why they do so. I think you'll find that it's the level of customer service he offers, as much as the quality of the products.

While participation in the board may increase his exposure to a target audience, people will only support the business if it offers good product and excellent customer service.

As an aside - I suspect that if you started a poll asking people what was their favorite canister light, you'd find that top products would be representative of companies that do not have much presence on ScubaBoard ... namely Salvo and Halcyon. The reason would be simple ... because people have received good product and excellent customer service.

I think in the long run people base their product purchases purely on self-interest ... not on the "presence" of a manufacturer on the forum.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[jeffrey-c]

It seems that it's been painted by some here that the fact that Tobin is representing DSS here is bad. I'm sure it is true that DSS' business has been helped significantly by his participation on SB. His presence here is easily observable, and he doesn't try and hide the fact that he makes and sells gear. Basically, SB has been a good marketing and advertising channel. I'm a good example of this - I recently bought DSS gear because of the exposure here on SB and all the positive reviews and comments. And I'm extremely pleased with the quality and performance of DSS gear as well as the thorough and prompt customer service.

But it is also clear that Tobin has completely above board in how his information is presented. In reading hundreds of posts, I've never once seen him tear down a competitor's product. He may state the advantages of his gear when pressed, but he has also stated many times that company XYZ's (insert almost any BP/W company here) equipment is excellent. He has expressed opinions on a variety of diving topics, and seems to do a fine job of not transitioning these into a "buy my gear" comment. There are many on SB that represent manufacturers, LDS, online retail, instruction, etc. Out of all of them, my observation is that Tobin is the most objective of all of them.

One of the things Tobin does that I greatly appreciate is an explaination of "why". Think of how many posts you've seen on SB where someone will ask a question or request a recommendation and the answers will be simple with no explaination of the thought process on why they feel that way. "What regulator would you not ever buy?" might yield the trivial response "XYZ", with zero understanding why. Tobin answers questions with actual information content, something you can use to think about and apply to your unique situation. I've found that very valuable, and can then make my own judgements.

Keep the comments and answers (and cool gear) coming, Tobin!

 

[stefusa]

Stop arguing like that...
Tobin, you're always arguing with people (most often, stephen ash but also patrick and the famous YKK zipper story )

I think the problem is you want to have the best product ever!!!
I am sure you have good products BUT people have different needs so IMO, no brand can be the best. :shakehead

Look, each time you ask the same question, which is the best wing, you got answer "I am diving the X from Y and that the best wing ever..

You all got good products but tobin, you seem to argue more than the others...

Someone can also ask why you're so often on SB and most of the time arguing :
1. Because you like helping people
2. It's making you advertising :blinking:
3. You have nothing else to do

I DO NOT KNOW THE ANSWER

It seems that it's difficult to have a conversation about your products with you ON SB, you always starting arguing fast...
However, you're giving very good advices for divers (such as weighting and lifting issues).
It seems that you're arguing a lot more concerning your products (you look like on the defensive side)
Keep calm tobin...

I am a STA diver too but I think you have good products, like the others
Let people make their choice, argue when something wrong is said about DSS but when people say that there is biais in the poll, I HAVE TO AGREE


For tobin's defense, most of manufacturers and dealers have advertising as signature, so.....
Tobin have only more post...

PEACE

 

[djanni]

I'm only replying to this post because it's from you.

There are literally dozens of ScubaBoard members with links to their business in their signature. Most only participate on the board for the purpose of selling their products.

Tobin is in the minority in that respect ... he actually posts substance to the board, and routinely answers questions on topics that have nothing to do with purchasing his products.

I have some property in Florida you might be interested in.

Or maybe ... like the majority of us ... he enjoys discussing his passion for scuba with like-minded individuals.


Well, it would be simple enough to ask those who support his business why they do so. I think you'll find that it's the level of customer service he offers, as much as the quality of the products.

I think I pretty much said that already.

While participation in the board may increase his exposure to a target audience, people will only support the business if it offers good product and excellent customer service.

That is a fact and I've been positive about the quality of his products.

As an aside - I suspect that if you started a poll asking people what was their favorite canister light, you'd find that top products would be representative of companies that do not have much presence on ScubaBoard ... namely Salvo and Halcyon. The reason would be simple ... because people have received good product and excellent customer service.

Canister lights?

I think in the long run people base their product purchases purely on self-interest ... not on the "presence" of a manufacturer on the forum.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, even Tobin said he's a capitalist. So am I for that matter.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Stop arguing like that...
Tobin, you're always arguing with people (most often, stephen ash but also patrick and the famous YKK zipper story )

I think the problem is you want to have the best product ever!!!
I am sure you have good products BUT people have different needs so IMO, no brand can be the best. :shakehead

Look, each time you ask the same question, which is the best wing, you got answer "I am diving the X from Y and that the best wing ever..

You all got good products but tobin, you seem to argue more than the others...

Someone can also ask why you're so often on SB and most of the time arguing :
1. Because you like helping people
2. It's making you advertising :blinking:
3. You have nothing else to do

I DO NOT KNOW THE ANSWER

It seems that it's difficult to have a conversation about your products with you ON SB, you always starting arguing fast...
However, you're giving very good advices for divers (such as weighting and lifting issues).
It seems that you're arguing a lot more concerning your products (you look like on the defensive side)
Keep calm tobin...

I am a STA diver too but I think you have good products, like the others
Let people make their choice, argue when something wrong is said about DSS but when people say that there is biais in the poll, I HAVE TO AGREE


For tobin's defense, most of manufacturers and dealers have advertising as signature, so.....
Tobin have only more post...

PEACE

Actually, there's a huge difference between discussing someone's products and attacking their motives for posting on ScubaBoard.

You seem to be more interested in doing the latter.

Have you ever dived DSS products? If so, how about providing some of your thoughts on them. That might be a bit more constructive than speculating as to why someone wants to post on the board.

Your statement that Tobin is "always arguing" is flat-out wrong. Tobin has given more useful advice, and answered more questions without soliciting his products than any other product manufacturer who posts to ScubaBoard.

The man has a right to defend himself when people question his integrity, or make incorrect statements about his products.

Who wouldn't?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm only replying to this post because it's from you.

I'm honored ...

I have some property in Florida you might be interested in.

Not particularly interested in investing in a Third World country at this time.

Bob, even Tobin said he's a capitalist. So am I for that matter.

So what? Got a confession ... a large percentage of my students find me through ScubaBoard. Doesn't mean I solicit their business ... but it's fair to say that without my presence here I wouldn't be getting it. Ain't capitalism great?

But ya know what? If I didn't offer them something they wanted, they wouldn't be contacting me ... no matter how many times I posted here.

Same thing applies to the results of the poll.

Want to know what surprises me? That Oxycheq didn't do better in the poll than it did. I would've rated them higher than either DiveRite or Halcyon.

A pity that Patrick and Tobin can't seem to have a more constructive dialogue ... I think the two of them make the best products out there for the BP/W users.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)