Which service kit for R109?

[Luis H]

The D400 has been an unwanted stepchild as it is different to service and has basically no parts in common with their other second stages and both played a part in the decision to discontinue it. I supect once SP feels the number of D300' s, D350's and D400's still owned by warranted owners declines to the point it is cheaper to replace them with a new upper end model than to continue supporting the D300-D400 family that they will discontinue support like they did for the Pilot, Air 1 and first generation Air 2 when the numbers of those regs still in service got very small. Those models still are the only second stages SP has ever decided not to continue supporting.

So I agree with you that the D400's future may be bleaker than the R109 or R156 as both of those use (with the exception of purge covers and exhaust tees) current soft parts common to the rest of the Sp line. But I don't think it is a harbinger for a total loss of support for older regs as Sp still seems to adhere to a policy of making improvements or changes in components used in newer models backward compatible to older models. The only real cost to SP is the loss of sales of new regs to customers still using old regs and I suspect (may be hope is a better word) they have the brains to recognize that if they change the practice of long term support all those old reg owners will buy new regs - from some other company - and many new reg customers will then see little advanatge to scubapro over other brands.

Based on a recent response from Scubapro, I am afraid that the time is quickly approaching or already here.

What bothers me is that it seems that they are only recognizing those customers who have regulators under warranty. I thought they would take pride on manufacturing good hardware that can be service, not just the sell of a service warranty policy.

There was a time when a company could pride themselves of how durable there products were and that it could be serviced long into the future.

I totally agree that if Scubapro totally abandons that mentality they will loose one of the things they are best known for.


I guess in the future, my wife should take a look at something like a G250V…or maybe she will start using one of Metal Balanced Adjustable. She likes the small shape (and light feeling out of the water) of the D400…in addition to its performance.

 

[redacted]

awap, I agree that there is some merit to the idea of keeping the regs unbalanced with a flippable seat. I don't depress the purges on mine during storage, since I am weary of deforming the diaphragm cover, which is the one part of R109 which can easily be damaged and is nearly impossible to find a replacement for. Have you ever experienced cover deformation due the depressed storage? Having to choose between extending the life of the seat (easily replaceable) or the the life of the cover (hardly replaceable), wouldn't it make sense to sacrifice the seat?

I have the full array of rubber covers on my metal 2nds from the early versions with the high lip, the middle version with the small lip, and the newest version with no lip. I have not had any problem with any of them taking a set in storage. Can't say the same thing about the newer regs like the R380 with the rubber face. These will take a set and cause a freeflow for a while if stored with the cover depressed.

Another option is to pull the retaining pin and crank out the adjuster to relieve the spring pressure. I had make some retaining pins from brass stock that were easier to remove and install than the SS one.

 

[Luis H]

Another option is to pull the retaining pin and crank out the adjuster to relieve the spring pressure. I had make some retaining pins from brass stock that were easier to remove and install than the SS one.

Personally, I have always liked that option, but I often forget to do it.

The SS pin you are referring to is not the old metal coil pin? Those old pins were a pain to remove. I find the new D shape (with the bottom open) very easy to pull by rotating the curved part toward the adjustment knob.

 

[oceancurrent]

What bothers me is that it seems that they are only recognizing those customers who have regulators under warranty. I thought they would take pride on manufacturing good hardware that can be service, not just the sell of a service warranty policy.

Indeed, they've been on the road to the dark side for quite some time. Forcing dealers to adhere to an MSRP and refusing to provide warranty for regs sold online amounts to price fixing. And I know for a fact that this kind of practice is illegal under the US anti-trust statutes. Unfortunately, they haven't been challenged in court by anyone yet. Limiting support to in-warranty regs may just be the tipping point for many people. Treating their customers like mindless cash cattle is hardly the way to go

There are a lot of great alternative manufacturers to ScubaPro these days and it's not too far fetched imagining the ScubaPro loyalist moving on to other brands.

 

[Packhorse]

Personally, I have always liked that option, but I often forget to do it.

The SS pin you are referring to is not the old metal coil pin? Those old pins were a pain to remove. I find the new D shape (with the bottom open) very easy to pull by rotating the curved part toward the adjustment knob.

I broke the thin end part of the air barrel on a 109 trying to remove the pin!

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Indeed, they've been on the road to the dark side for quite some time. Forcing dealers to adhere to an MSRP and refusing to provide warranty for regs sold online amounts to price fixing. And I know for a fact that this kind of practice is illegal under the US anti-trust statutes. Unfortunately, they haven't been challenged in court by anyone yet. Limiting support to in-warranty regs may just be the tipping point for many people. Treating their customers like mindless cash cattle is hardly the way to go

There are a lot of great alternative manufacturers to ScubaPro these days and it's not too far fetched imagining the ScubaPro loyalist moving on to other brands.

It is a bit of a catch 22 for Scubapro. For example we are having a conversation about service kits for a second stage that was introduced 40 years ago. Excluding various double hose regs that have third party parts support, how many brands can you have that conversation about? Aqualung comes close with some of their Conshelf second stages, but only because they are very generic designs. No one else is in even in the ballpark and consequently is not even subject to the same standard SP is being held to.

The D400 design itself is 25 years old (and the D350 and D300 are nearly a decade older) so Scubapro is in a position of continuing support for a very non standard regulator that requires very unique parts that have to manufactured, stocked and distributed to support customers who have purchased them anywhere from 5 to 25 years ago. If they discontinue support they will also replace a customer's D400 with a comparable new second stage (in this case probably the S600) provided the reg was purchased from an authorized dealer.

Given the cost of replacing a D400 with an S600, I think we might want to cut them some slack for not wanting to replace every used or grey market purchased D400 floating around out there - particularly when you consider that most companies just discontinue regs and leave you stuck owning a paperweight even if you bought it from an authoirized dealer and kept it properly maintained.

The practice of making improvements and service kits backward compatible to older regs as well as the practice of maintaining long term parts support costs SP money and it also costs them new regulator sales. Customers ask themselves why buy a new Mk 25 G250V when their 10 year old Mk 20 G250, 15 year old Mk 15 G250 or 25 year old Mk 10 G250 give them nearly identical performance, are still under warranty and still qualify for free parts?

So again, while I have a beef with SP degrading the D400 through several changes and then discontinuing it, I am less able to critisize them for deciding at some point to discontinue support due to the non standard nature of the design. I am concerned that at some point SP may go the way every other company has gone and not show much concern for backward compatibility, upgradability and long term parts support - perhaps in response from a growing number of customers who seem to want it all in terms of service and long term suppoort, but then also feel the need to be cheap and buy it on-line to save a couple bucks per year over the life of the reg. However I don't see potentially discontinuing support for the the D400 as an indicator that is going to happen across the board.

 

[redacted]

Scuapro did some great engineering years ago and produced some lasting designs. But they also still benefit from these lasting designs by simply maintaining selected envelopes in their current designs thus reducing engineering, new production, and service support costs. So things like the balanced poppet which has gone through a number of design variations, all compatible with the envelope of the air barrel (until the ridiculous X650), benefit both the diver and the manufacturer.

I suspect that the old scubapro metal 2nds are popular enough that after-market parts providers will step in and produce at least exhaust-Ts and rubber covers should the demand become adequate. I'm not sure if the D-series is popular enough to warrant such attention, but it may well be.

 

[oceancurrent]

It is a bit of a catch 22 for Scubapro.

You are right that they have great products and have an impressive history. I hope they continue supporting them. But then again, when you have a great product which people like a lot (like the Aqua Lung double-hoses), people will find a way to prolong the product's life significantly (if not indefinitely). So, I am not too concerned about R109s and other great great ScubaPro products :14:

Not to hijack the thread in a different direction, but it is an interesting topic:

You can't blame people for wanting value when shopping. When you work hard to earn these money and are being squeezed by recessions and other forces, you've got to work on reducing spendings. The problem is not with ScubaPro's dealer prices, it's with the fact that LDS-es insist on 100% markup and tend to pose as though people owe them money.

Essentially, what we observe is a chasm between the antiquated business model (territorial LDS-es as primary source of gear, low sales volume, high prices) to the new age business model (dive store can be located anywhere and serves a lot of customers, high sales volume, low prices). The zeal with which some LDS owners, who have been in business for decades, are fighting (a lost battle) of preserving the antiquated status quo is rather comical, instead of opening their eyes and realizing that there is now a thing called the internet, which has revolutionized the way retailers and customers interact, and updating their business model to take advantage of technology, rather than fight it. You can't stop progress! Also, you never ever should violate one of the prime directives of business - don't go against consumer preferences. In this case, the consumer has made his choice and the companies who work with him (LeisurePro, DiversDirect, ScubaToys, etc) are seeing exponential growth in sales, while all the LDS guys, who don't get it that it's not 1970 any more, are slowly but surely loosing their ground (and complaining every year of worse sales than the year before). It's incredibly hypocritical to go to Amazon.com to buy books (and not only) while at the same time moralizing to own customers against shopping online.

Doomsday theories of the kind "whatever shall we do once all the LDS-es go out of business" are ridiculous. There is always place in the diving industry for local service and training stores - these are things which are hard to centralize, especially with the looming gas prices. Dive stores like Cape Ann Divers, who specialize in service instead of sales, are here to stay. Stores which overly-depend on sales and territoriality are going the way of the dinosaurs.

Don't take me wrong... I love scuba diving and have a great deal of respect for the people who have chosen to work in the dive industry. All I am saying is that the industry should find a way to move in the 21st century and rethink some of the 20th century practices. Mostly, the problem stems from the fact that most of the senior industry leaders are old-timers who don't know heck about technology and the generation Y (even if they try to understand it). There is a looming need for fresh leadership and infusion of new ideas.

 

[halocline]

A quick question; is there only one size of spring in the 109? I took one apart today that was paired with a two LP port MK5, and the spring seemed a little longer than the other unbalanced springs I've seen in other 109s. The poppet was a different style; no "legs" on the spring side, just a flat end. I put a G200 kit in it. Whoever "rebuilt" it last time (maybe 20 years ago) put a cotter pin in place of the D clamp that holds the adjuster in. What are my chances finding one of those clamps (or the right spring if I need it) here on Roatan?

Regarding the D series, I'm going to stock up on poppets and a few extra diaphragm/exhaust valves. The day after I arrived on the island, my D300 is breathing pretty wet when upside down and I'm sure it's the seal between the exhaust valve and the diaphragm. AWAP, maybe it's time you convinced your wife you need to make an emergency parts delivery to Roatan.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I am sure the cotter pin was never standard, but a roll pin was used before the D shaped clip came along.

I have seen three 109 poppets that precede the current one. There is the one with the little legs on it, a smoother and rounder one without legs that the springs fits inside and a very short one with an arch that holds the seat. The latter poppet uses a plastic ball between the spring and adjustment knob rather than a flat plate. All however used the same spring. My guess is whoever serviced it needed a little more spring pressure and lacking a new spring, stretched the old spring a bit to get the extra pressure.