When to donate air?

[boulderjohn]

I think the group situation described is commonly done by some dive companies that make a big deal about giving their divers long dives. They would argue that there is difference of opinion on the meaning of "low on air."

What I have seen is the situation where the DM shares air (with a long hose alternate) with the first person in the group to reach 1,000 PSI. By most definitions, 1,000 PSI is not considered "low on air." All other members of the group are confirmed to have more than 1,000 PSI. When the second person in the group reaches 1,000 PSI, the original diver sharing air goes back to his or her own regulator and the group begins an ascent.

That means that the group begins the ascent with every member having at least 1,000 PSI, so by most definitions, no one in the group was ever low on air.

 

[Lorenzoid]

It is my training and mine and my partner's plan that we will first of all stay aware of our own and each other's air but in the situation of a surprise loss of awareness LOA we will immediately begin a normal ascent and closely monitor and be ready to donate if LOA turns into OOA.

I bring this up because I somewhat often see other divers LOA in large guided groups being donated air prior to being OOA, sometimes by a buddy but almost always by a guide / instructor. Is this ever really appropriate?

When a guide does it in a group of random divers, it makes sense to me that they might prefer to donate than have the LOA diver surface separately. The guide may know that their present location is not a good place to surface. Also, someone who has gotten themselves into a LOA situation has already marked themselves as the type who may not have the sense or skill to shoot an SMB and surface normally.

When diving without a guide--just you and your equally vigilant and responsible buddy--then do exactly what you said your training suggested you do.

 

[Still Kicking]

Aha! Ok, I see where people are coming from then. Yes, I know, donate when someone says OOA.
But now that we're on the surface I was looking to debate the finer points.

And that's what we're doing.

Going back and looking at your original post:

"It is my training and mine and my partner's plan that we will first of all stay aware of our own and each other's air but in the situation of a surprise loss of awareness LOA we will immediately begin a normal ascent and closely monitor and be ready to donate if LOA turns into OOA."

Seems most reasonable.

 

[steinbil]

My gas planning says I can do a full and safe ascent with a stressed SAC from 100 feet if I have 700 psi.

I don't know what tank(s) you have, but hopefully you're including gas-sharing on the ascent with your buddy in that gas plan. If you're diving doubles, it sounds like a reasonable plan.

Because my plan is to begin this ascent from 100 feet WELL before being at 700psi, I would consider myself LOA if beginning the ascent with 700 psi, but but WHY begin donating? Let's assume open water. No overhead.

Unless your gas plan is lacking (see the previous point), why would you plan to begin the ascent well before your planned minimum gas? And if the plan is lacking, and you're adding an extra buffer for gas sharing or failures, why not just make that a calculated part of your gas plan instead of having a "fuzzy" defined limit? Sorry for the slight OT, but I think it relates to the decision of when to donate and what LOA really is.

On topic:
Why begin donating early? I think Imla said it best. Minimize anxiety and risk. Leave gas for buoyancy and possible separation.

I'd rather stay together as buddies and donate if needed at the safety stop if I run out (or maybe if down to 150 psi or so).

Why are you hesitant to share gas? This is pure speculation, of course, but if the hesitation is because you're not comfortable doing it, then maybe doing it more often and training gas sharing ascents would be beneficial. A real OOG scenario with a possibly stressed/panicked diver is going to be harder than a drill or just sharing with a calm LOA diver, so I would at least want to be as prepared as possible for the worst case, as well as trying to avoid the situation in the first place.

 

[TMHeimer]

And that's what we're doing.

Going back and looking at your original post:

"It is my training and mine and my partner's plan that we will first of all stay aware of our own and each other's air but in the situation of a surprise loss of awareness LOA we will immediately begin a normal ascent and closely monitor and be ready to donate if LOA turns into OOA."

Seems most reasonable.

Yes, that's what I was trying to articulate way back there. Someone's low on air, you go up right away and only donate when the buddy is OOA or very close to it. Ascending with each using their own air is easier than with someone using another's octo. No donating to the LOA before the ascent begins for sure, and definitely not in order to continue a dive (something I hear that happens in DM led group dives). In the OW course you learn how to donate to an OOA and ascend doing so. I don't recall anything about donating to a LOA, just a lot about each diver watching their gas supply.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Why are you hesitant to share gas? This is pure speculation, of course, but if the hesitation is because you're not comfortable doing it, then maybe doing it more often and training gas sharing ascents would be beneficial. A real OOG scenario with a possibly stressed/panicked diver is going to be harder than a drill or just sharing with a calm LOA diver, so I would at least want to be as prepared as possible for the worst case, as well as trying to avoid the situation in the first place.

I think you're hitting on a significant point here. How many divers really practice gas-sharing ascents? I think the last time I attempted one was the GUE Fundies course. I think for most divers, the go-to recourse for a plain old LOA event should be to end the dive and ascend together normally, provided their gas planning says a normal ascent is still possible. In an ideal world, we would all keep well practiced in the skill of a gas-sharing ascent, but maybe that's a lot to expect?

 

[scubadada]

I don't think donating air is the correct response in any situation. I'm old school, plan your dive.

 

[boulderjohn]

I don't think donating air is the correct response in any situation. I'm old school, plan your dive.

I am trying to understand this. Are you saying that the correct way to respond is not to have to respond?

Are you saying that if I have planned my dive appropriately and have plenty of air, but someone else did not plan appropriately and ran out, I should refuse to donate because they did not plan their dive properly? If someone who is put of air comes to me for air, I should refuse to give it and tell them to do a CESA?

 

[DrWilliam]

I am trying to understand this. Are you saying that the correct way to respond is not to have to respond?

Are you saying that if I have planned my dive appropriately and have plenty of air, but someone else did not plan appropriately and ran out, I should refuse to donate because they did not plan their dive properly? If someone who is put of air comes to me for air, I should refuse to give it and tell them to do a CESA?

No you are definitely misunderstanding the discussion. Yes, if someone, anyone, give an OOA signal donate immediately. I am exploring the situation / question of whether there are situations where one should start donating when the other diver is LOA but ok.

 

[DrWilliam]

I don't know what tank(s) you have, but hopefully you're including gas-sharing on the ascent with your buddy in that gas plan. If you're diving doubles, it sounds like a reasonable plan.


Unless your gas plan is lacking (see the previous point), why would you plan to begin the ascent well before your planned minimum gas? And if the plan is lacking, and you're adding an extra buffer for gas sharing or failures, why not just make that a calculated part of your gas plan instead of having a "fuzzy" defined limit? Sorry for the slight OT, but I think it relates to the decision of when to donate and what LOA really is.

On topic:
Why begin donating early? I think Imla said it best. Minimize anxiety and risk. Leave gas for buoyancy and possible separation.


Why are you hesitant to share gas? This is pure speculation, of course, but if the hesitation is because you're not comfortable doing it, then maybe doing it more often and training gas sharing ascents would be beneficial. A real OOG scenario with a possibly stressed/panicked diver is going to be harder than a drill or just sharing with a calm LOA diver, so I would at least want to be as prepared as possible for the worst case, as well as trying to avoid the situation in the first place.

My gas planning includes redundancy for two divers. The requirement for ONE diver is 700psi from 100 feet in my planning example. My planned ascent is at 1400 psi on AL80 singles. I was only stating that if a surprise loss of awareness arises and if the air sources are stable (no catastrophic loss condition) then I know I am LOA but safe and not OOA and don't need to share air if I'm at 700 and should remain calm and ascend while remaining in contact distance with my buddy.