When do you use a Divemaster (11/9/03)

[DennisS]

ScubaRon once bubbled...
PADI actually lists 10 roles that a Dive Master may perform:

• Guide
• Supervisor
• Instructional Assistant
• Medic
• Oceanographer
• Technician
• Counselor
• PR expert
• Seaman
• Trained buddy

If you need one or more of the above, consider hiring a DM.
ScubaRon
PADI Dive master

What makes a PADI divemaster an oceanographer? Fish ID?

 

[muzickiller]

SeaJay once bubbled...
NEVER



I don't mean to be rude, but I don't hire DM's, and I don't ask my high school driving instructor to drive with me when I take my car for a spin, either.

The LAST thing I want in my dive is for someone else to "take charge."

In my local area, I've researched my a$$ off... I know enough about the local waters that the DM's ask me where to go... And sorry, I'm keeping the best sites for myself and my buddies.

When I travel, I either hook up with a local diver or ask the local divers... Or simply charter a boat and dive where the captain says to dive.

Sorry, man... Had waaaay too many bad experiences with DM's. I would pay to get rid of them! "Here's $25. Stay on the dock."

When I'm forced to dive with them, I make it clear that nobody but me touches my life support. Of course, I'm polite about it... "Hey, man... I know you're helping everyone here, but I've got this thing about my gear... Do you mind if I handle it all on my own?" They usually understand.

...And if not... Well... I don't dive with them again.

You don't just sound to COOL for any one to tey to help you =-)

 

[SeaJay]

muzickiller once bubbled...
You don't just sound to COOL for any one to tey to help you =-)

It's got nothing to do with "coolness." Who am I going to impress, the fish?

Big-T: I haven't "employed" anyone in my example. I pay nobody, and the general rule is that they don't go with me; although I've had some ask to attend.

Certainly they aren't in charge, that's for sure. It's not their dive.

Sorry, it's *my* dive... Just like it would be *their* dive if they put it together and went. Why would I expect them to pay me if they went diving?

Why would they expect me to pay them? Do they own the wreck or something?

Generally, I find my locations on the 'net... Then I find a charter, and expect the captain to show on time and take me and my divers out to the site, as planned, and for a fee. In my example, the captains *are* bus drivers. Sure, I abide by their rules on the boat (they're the "captain," after all), but in the water, I abide by MY rules - plain and simple. Any captain worth his weight is thrilled at the proactive approach to my diving, and the fact that I assume responsibility... Not to mention that they're quite happy to be relieved of it.

Any other notion completely baffles me... Although I recognize that "other notions" are commonplace.

As a captain, wouldn't YOU be thrilled if your responsibility ended when the divers stepped off the boat?

 

[SeaJay]

Big-t-2538 once bubbled...

Point - you don't know what conditions are at a foreign site...

I generally don't care. I usually know more than they do about expected temp, vis, depth and environmental factors - and what's not researchable is provided by the boat's instruments.

Point - you have to talk to someone around there that you trust and will openly give you an honest evaluation of the site.

Like what, exactly?

My fullest intention is to dive wrecks that aren't normally dived... Who should I contact then?

The person I ususally get ahold of is a DM or boat captain...these are both members of my potential dive team...that I have to have confidence in.

I'm not sure how either of those qualifications have earned your trust. I have met many boat captains that are clueless, and frankly, I have not yet met a DM that I would trust my life to.

In most cases (not the last one, Terry! ) I have had to guide the captain to find the wreck.

I have never had a good experience with a DM. In fact, twice I had to donate gas because the DM was incapable of planning for their own gas consumption.

Sorry. Would you rather me sugar-coat it?

Asking a DM to attend is like asking a cop to show up at your local racetrack to give an opinion on how well you drive. I am fully aware of my limits, and I don't need someone else to question them. I certainly am not going to pay for it.

 

[PacNWdiver]

SeaJay,

Obviosly, you are not in need of a DM's services. No problem. That's precisely what a DM is for, provide a service. If you ain't buyin' no need for it, Right?

Point of clarification... My DM training was pretty clear, at no time am I responsible for certified divers. I'm not there to "hawk" other divers, tell them what to do or how to dive. I offer suggestions, site briefings and am on hand to answer questions and be of any assistance I can. When I'm with students it's a different situation, of course. But, it's beyond my duty of care to play the heavy with divers, nor would I ever want to.

It sounds like you had some bad DM encounters. Sorry to hear that. But, realized that competent DM do have a place in the diving industry, perticularly with newer divers and students.

John

 

[SeaJay]

PacNWdiver once bubbled...

It sounds like you had some bad DM encounters.

Yeah, that would be putting it lightly. In fact, I pretty much have a bad experience every time I get on someone else's boat.

I don't think they appreciate the independent attitude of my buddies and me.

Fair enough. We won't dive together. Which, of course, means that they don't get to go on my dives.

Now, if they want to buddy with me... That's another story. If that's the case, then they're scrutinized just like the rest of my buddies were, and added to the team if they're a positive addition.

Sorry to hear that. But, realized that competent DM do have a place in the diving industry, perticularly with newer divers and students.

John

...To make up for their lack of skill? You don't see anything wrong with that mentality?

I find that thought process really repulsive, and believe that it is a symptom of a social paradigm shift for the worse.

 

[paulwlee]

SeaJay, I can see why you don't hire DM's and would actually run away from one. You like to be in charge and in control.

Same here. I have never hired a DM, and the only time I dived with a 'hired DM' was on vacation in Hawaii for a couple of days where there was a guide as part of the two-tank boat dives. Good thing, too, as I only had two days for diving, and didn't have the time to discover the sites by myself.

The original question was from a relatively new diver. For him, hiring DM's may make perfect sense.

Going back to your analogy of driving instructors, what you are saying is similar to this: a kid comes asking whether it's a good idea to get a driving instructor. A racecar driver jumps in and emphatically asserts why he himself doesn't need one, and never needed one either. Of course he doesn't need one!

 

[SeaJay]

I'm flattered to be analogized to the race car driver, but I'm no badass when it comes to diving.

Here's what I would say to the original poster, if he asked me (which he didn't, directly):

If you want to go diving... Go diving. That's it. Learn how to do it safely, then don't exceed your training. If you find yourself wanting to, then go get more training.

Then do lots and lots and lots of diving.

Forget the gear - rent it.

Forget the DM - you don't need it.

Forget the computer - it's a luxury (and arguably unnecessary).

If you want to have fun diving, grab a buddy that you like spending time with, rent some gear, and go to your local pond and get wet. A lot.

Subscribe to Scuba Diving.

Read the DIR Fundamentals book.

Further your education with AOW or Rescue.

Dive some more.

Chat with us and tell us about your dives.

And then dive some more.

Man, if I had waited around for a DM or to buy my gear or to have the LDS run a charter, I'd have never learned anything.

Heck, when I'm out of gas, I freedive. Know what happens when you take Jeff Gordon's race car away? He races bicycles. It's just who he is... He races. In his old age, he'll be racing his wheelchair.

...And I'll be diving my bathtub.

If you want to dive, just go do it.

 

[Big-t-2538]

SeaJay once bubbled...
As a captain, wouldn't YOU be thrilled if your responsibility ended when the divers stepped off the boat?

Nope a captain is part of my dive team...or as a captain, I am part of a dive team...my responsibility does not end until you step off my boat at the end of the day.

How can you possibly say that you know more about a foreign sites temp, depth, viz and conditions than a seasoned diver (in this case a DM) without ever having been in the water there?

I agree that not all DMs or boat captians have half a clue as to what needs to be done. However, the good ones out there...the ones worth paying for...listen to your team, then provide and cater to your team's needs before you ever even get to the dock. Yeah, you have to talk to them before you ever pack the truck...you have to talk to previous customers that made the same dives you want to make in order to make a decsion on who's going to take you to the wreck. Usually those captian have a DM on board that "tags along" on the dive for safety reasons....but in my experience if you get all the logistics of "my team...our dives...etc., etc." settled before hand, the DM becomes just another member of the team.



O.K...topic number 2...good DMs and newbies.

They totally have a place in the diving world, and it isn;t for making up for a lack of skill. A DM can lead a group on a tour of a reef...not for watching the dive...but for pointing things out to people who have never been there before. A good reef-diver DM knows what a rock fish looks like, or what a ray buried in the sand loks like...they know where lobsters hide, they know where octopus hide....yeah you're right, you don't need a DM to see these things, but if you have never been on a reef before and have no idea what these things look like or where to look wouldn't a good DM be a wise choice for someone who knows nothing? Granted it is not the only choice, but it is a choice.

Alright...that is possibly one of the longest posts I've made in some time...I'm going to get some more coffee.

 

[paulwlee]

SeaJay:
Well, I was just trying to illustrate a point, and wasn't really implying you were the equivalent of a racecar driver. But maybe you are.. I don't know.

In reply to your previous post, I would say the following:

Diving the local quarry 100 times will not prepare someone for a rough surf entry on the Pacific coast.
Diving the Caribbean 100 times in shorties wearing 5lbs of weight will not adequately prepare someone to dive in 50 degree water in 7mm farmer johns with 35lbs of weight.

However, you don't really need formal 'training' to be introduced into the new environment, either. A couple dives with a buddy who regularly dives in that environment will provide good divers with the necessary experience to safely dive in those new conditions. If you don't have such a buddy, it's nice to be able to hire someone to be that experienced buddy.

Yes, a person with enough varied experience will be able to adapt quickly by themselves to most environments.
But before that happens, one could benefit from some guidance for new environments, even if he/she is a competent diver in his/her own environment.