When do you use a Divemaster (11/9/03)
- Thread starter rjens
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SeaJay
Contributor
Lol!!! Funny.
While I find it humorous, and my position on DM's hasn't changed, I will apologize for anyone that my blatant voicing of opinion has offended.
Especially you, Cincy.
You're right in that I'm "backpedaling." You're right that diving's not "free of risk" and therefore should not be classified as "safe." It's more correct to call it "comparatively safe." Of course, that depends on the management of risk that you employ...
...But I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know. You're an instructor for more than a few agencies, I understand... So apparently you already know the concept of managed risk anyway. Suffice to say that it's a moot point to talk about it.
I am sincerely sorry if I offended you. I have never dived with you, and I know nothing about your practices or your gear configuration, other than what you've volunteered in previous posts. I am not in any position to pass judgement on you, your buddies, or your dive style.
If I have "taken a cheap shot at you" or "criticized you," then I am sorry.
Somehow, my brash statement of, "I never use a DM" fell on your ears as, "Cincy, you suck." That wasn't my intent at all. I couldn't pass judgement on your diving, even if I arrogantly tried... I am not qualified, since I've never dived with you.
Cincy, I apologize for all of the things I said above. They are much more abrasive than they need to be. My points should have been made without being destructive.
a 12 pack of high life and my entry fee
....pending what you want me to do
Seriously...am I not following correctly your outright hatred of DMs??? Is it jsut that you don't want them around telling you want to do or what your plan has to be or something.
On a charter boat, there are liabilities that both the DM and the captain have to worry about. You want to come on this boat, you have to realize that we have these rules....you are welcome to dive with someone else if you don't like them. That is the kind of thing I'd be going over with people before I even leave the dock.
Is that the kind of thing you don't like? I'm still trying to get a handle on your "I hate DMs statement"
SeaJay
Contributor
Ahem... For the record, and because it's been pointed out that I need to be a bit more careful to communicate clearly, I would like to point out that I never said, "I hate DMs."
But I believe I understand your question... I believe you're asking me, "What has made you decide to never use them?" Well, I can answer that question, and I'll try to do it as amicably as possible.
There's two reasons why I won't employ a DM: The simple reason, and the "deep" reason. Here they are:
1. The simple reason is that I don't want anyone "leading" me. I do not need to be led, and I don't want to be led. When I dive, *I* am in charge, and I don't want or need to be negotiatiating with anyone about it. Perhaps the DM and I will see eye-to-eye on things... And if we do, then we'll dive together, as a team. But that's a radically different mindset than having a DM "in charge." I do not need their advice, I do not need their direction, I do not value their "expertise." I do not desire to compromise or negotiate, and I certainly am not going to pay for it. Those people whose opinion I value I will seek to become a team with... As they do with me. I do not charge to dive with them, and I certainly would not expect them to charge me.
2. The deep reason is one which I've already mentioned: There seems to be a paradigm shift in America today where people are gaining comfort in placing blame on others. There seems to be a shift to this from the "take responsibility for what you do and say" mentality that was popular decades ago. Sure, some people simply feel more comfortable with a DM on-site, valued for their expertise. If you like to dive that way, then more power to you.
But I feel that hiring a DM is not a solution to a problem; I feel that it's a "fix" for the symptom. The symptom is that you aren't comfortable with your own skills enough to do the dive on your own. The problem is that you don't posess adequate skills. The solution, I feel, is to work on your skills... Not hire someone to make up for them.If you stepped back for a moment and looked at this a little harder, could you not see that it's possible for someone to conclude that the action of bringing a DM simply gives them someone to sue?
Not that I agree with that perspective... But I certainly can see it... Which shows the reality of the situation: A DM is a fix for a symptom, not a problem. The problem lies unaddressed in that scenario and requires a different solution.
My suggestion for someone considering hiring a DM would be to instead work on your own skills until you feel that a DM would be obtrusive. If you can't get those skills... Well... Then perhaps bowling would be a better sport for you.
Sorry if that offends. I'm doing my best here to try to explain this without offense.
Answering your question honestly is like answering the question honestly when your girlfriend says, "Do I look fat?"
...And while I might find that some questions can be sugar-coated for delivery, scuba diving has dire consequences... So I am not going to sugar-coat that answer. Sorry.
my wife is 32 weeks pregnant...there is no answer to this question....
But back to the topic -
O.K...I see what you're saying to a point...but what about going on a trip...let's say wreck diving in the Straits...would you not want to employ a DM for the following reasons...
1 - get you to the wreck
2 - be knowledgable about local conditions and skills/desires of the group to make intelligent decisions on what wreck to dive
3 - be knowledgable about the wreck itself and give you a site briefing before you hit the water...
Frankly, those are the qualitites I look for in a DM or surface support group when I'm going somewhere and diving unfamiliar territory. Yeah, there are other options out there, but a good local DM should have all of this information readily available. Those are the times I would employ a DM, Boat captain, and crew, and I find it well worth the price.
SeaJay
Contributor
In one of my Organizational Behavior classes at the University last semester, we talked about the fact that most firms manage their businesses during a crisis situation. That is, they wait for a problem to arise, and then address it by changing policy or structure in their organization.
This is by far the worst time to be managing an organization. Crisis situations historically encourage a "knee-jerk" reaction to a problem, creating a less-than-perfect solution.
A much better suggestion would be to manage an organization PRIOR to a crisis. Make small and beneficial changes so as to avoid a crisis altogether. Making management decisions without the pressure of a crisis historically produces better solutions... Not to mention that the organization never has the opportunity to feel the pressure of a crisis in the first place.
Taking this analogy to the example of your dive trip... No, I do not wait to go on the trip and then need the knowledge of a DM. Instead, my approach to diving unfamiliar areas is to seek advice from those people that I know and trust and have confidence in their skills. When a site interests me, I pull together a hand-picked team to dive the site.
...So the approach is a bit different... The problem of not having the knowledge is solved before we get to the site and realize that we don't have what we need to dive safely.
Dare I say it... This is part of the "holistic" approach which some agencies teach. It's a whole different mindset.
This is by far the worst time to be managing an organization. Crisis situations historically encourage a "knee-jerk" reaction to a problem, creating a less-than-perfect solution.
A much better suggestion would be to manage an organization PRIOR to a crisis. Make small and beneficial changes so as to avoid a crisis altogether. Making management decisions without the pressure of a crisis historically produces better solutions... Not to mention that the organization never has the opportunity to feel the pressure of a crisis in the first place.
Taking this analogy to the example of your dive trip... No, I do not wait to go on the trip and then need the knowledge of a DM. Instead, my approach to diving unfamiliar areas is to seek advice from those people that I know and trust and have confidence in their skills. When a site interests me, I pull together a hand-picked team to dive the site.
...So the approach is a bit different... The problem of not having the knowledge is solved before we get to the site and realize that we don't have what we need to dive safely.
Dare I say it... This is part of the "holistic" approach which some agencies teach. It's a whole different mindset.
ScubaRon
I think you and I are getting to the exact same point, but we're going the real long way around to get there.
Point - you don't know what conditions are at a foreign site...
Point - you have to talk to someone around there that you trust and will openly give you an honest evaluation of the site.
The person I ususally get ahold of is a DM or boat captain...these are both members of my potential dive team...that I have to have confidence in.
I agree that this all has to be done before you even pack the truck.car for the trip.
Granted you may not know exactly what wrecks you're going to be diving on a given day due to conditions and other uncontrollable variables, but we are both selecting a team that we are confident in and that we are confident will make an intelligent decision based on the conditions the day of the dive.
thus ultimately you have employed a DM, but he is fitting your criteria via a pre-screening process...or the phone calls you have made to set up the trip.
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