When do you use a Divemaster (11/9/03)

[CincyBengalsFan]

SeaJay once bubbled...


That's simply not true.

Decades ago, before the DM was even thought of, there were divers... Beginning divers and advanced divers.

Prior to my certification two years ago, *I* was a diver. I dove for years without knowing or caring what a DM was.

Still couldn't care less. And the implication that I somehow need some other person to make my decisions for me is positively amazing to me.





I am entertained that y'all have been able to find a use for this creature.



Well, like I said, "I don't mean to be rude, but..." Looks like you focused on the "rude" instead of the "but."

I attempted to drawn an analogy between a DM and my high school driving instructor. I am a big boy now and don't need either to go and do what I've been taught to do on my own.

Let me guess... You're a DM?

It all boils down to this: I don't want to be "hawked" during my dive. I don't need someone telling me what to do or what not to do, and the only person "in charge" of MY dive is going to be ME. I don't want someone else to plan my dive for me, I don't want someone else telling me when and how to end the dive, and I don't want someone else in-between those two points telling me where to go, what to do, or how to do it.

And I certainly don't need to explain myself at every step along the way if he "lets" me do all of my own planning and diving.

Sorry if that offends you. If, to my face, you told me that you were offended about the fact that I didn't need your services as a DM, I probably wouldn't be so polite about it... I don't know why I am being so polite about it online. To your face, I'd tell you, "Tough. Suck it up. If you want to dive with me, then you're going to need to ask me politely. Then, if I feel like you might make a good addition to my team, we'll do some simple stuff together so that I can find out whether or not you're good enough for my team. If you are, then we'll consider taking you along, but let's get something clear: You'll be the lackey. Until you prove yourself to us, we're going to be leery of placing our lives in your hands. That's all there is to it."

The last thing I need is some kid who thinks he's Aquaman, fondling my gear before my dive, forgetting to plan at all, who tells me to dive my computer and be back on the boat at 500 psi.

I might feel differently if, even ONCE, I'd seen some sort of benefit in a DM.

I'm sorry you feel so negative towards DM's. No I'm not a DM. I'm an instructor or higher for several agencies. How many Dive Charters out there go out without a divemaster...None that I'm aware of.

So, You don't need instructors to become an O/W diver. Is this what you're saying now....Brilliant, just brilliant. Is there training at all needed then? Let's just set up all probable divers with LP. There they can purchase everything they need to dive with a fill tanks up with and forget any instruction. Let's eliminate the Divemater and Instructors. What good are they anyway?

 

[Big-t-2538]

SeaJay once bubbled...
I might feel differently if, even ONCE, I'd seen some sort of benefit in a DM.

Not all DMs are morons SeaJay...I for one love working with students and am more than happy to lead someone around a quarry when they ask me to....this obvioulsy apply;s to all divers...not just students.

However, they (the askee) also have to plan their own dive, and I make sure that their planning is "ok"...if they have questions of me, I'll gladly answer them (most times...there are times in the evening that questions shouldn't be asked). For the most part, I don't touch gear other than checking somone's SPG before we hit the water. I think any diver should be able to set-up their own...OTOH, I'll gladly help if asked, or if there is some sort of maintenance that needs to be performed that I can handle.

 

[SeaJay]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...

How many Dive Charters out there go out without a divemaster...None that I'm aware of.

EVERY ONE of my charters.

Know why? 'Cause I call the boat captain, set a date to go diving, and then go. I don't generally dive with other people's charters, because I don't like being forced to dive with people who are unsafe... And if I'm not in control of who I am in the water with, then it's possible that I could be in the water with someone unsafe.

So, You don't need instructors to become an O/W diver. Is this what you're saying now....Brilliant, just brilliant. Is there training at all needed then?

That's not exactly what I said.

YOU said that without DM's, there would be no instructors, and without instructors, there would be no divers.

My point is that neither a DM nor an instructor make a diver. For decades, people have become divers without either of those. I am one of them.

Of course, I recommend getting proper instruction, for you ARE taking your life into your own hands... But finding an instructor is only one part of "getting proper instruction."

 

[CincyBengalsFan]

SeaJay once bubbled...


EVERY ONE of my charters.

Know why? 'Cause I call the boat captain, set a date to go diving, and then go. I don't generally dive with other people's charters, because I don't like being forced to dive with people who are unsafe... And if I'm not in control of who I am in the water with, then it's possible that I could be in the water with someone unsafe.

I guess you probably own your very own helicopter to commute back and forth from work. Or you work out of your house were it's safe.

Are you claiming to be "safe" when diving with your usually dive buddies?

Definition of safe now.....Free from injury and harm......Not much is safe out there with or without a familar buddy.

 

[SeaJay]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...


I guess you probably own your very own helicopter to commute back and forth from work. Or you work out of your house were it's safe.

Neither. This conversation is getting a little weird.

Are you claiming to be "safe" when diving with your usually dive buddies?

Yes. No doubt. Wholeheartedly.

In fact, I can assure you that diving with my buddies, I am safer than in my car, driving down the road.

Still, risk can't be completely nullified... That is, there is always some degree of risk involved in diving, just as in any activity.

The key is to manage it. And getting in the water with people who may be safe and may not be safe is *not* managing risk... It's playing roulette... I have no idea who's safe and who isn't, and I have no way of managing the situation once I figure it out.

I also don't let other people pack my parachute, and I don't ride in someone else's car that I don't know.

Let me ask you this, Cincy... What's it to you, anyway? What the heck do you care how I dive? Someone asked a question about "How often do you use a DM," and I said, "Never." Now you want to argue my position with me?

Sorry, man... That's simply the way I dive - even if it's just to avoid the arguement like you're so gracefully demonstrating.

 

[CincyBengalsFan]

SeaJay once bubbled...




Let me ask you this, Cincy... What's it to you, anyway? What the heck do you care how I dive? Someone asked a question about "How often do you use a DM," and I said, "Never." Now you want to argue my position with me?

Highlander (SeaJay),

What's it to me you say....You have insulted many divemasters which I was once. Not to mention many of my friends are divemasters and great DM's at that. So your insulting DM remarks is what it IS to me.

As far as you being safe. You need to look Safe up in a Dictionary before you post again. Nothing in SCUBA is safe. The only thing that is safe is betting that the Raiders won't make the playoffs.

Definition of Safe in Websters....Free from damage, danger or injury. Involving NO risk...

Since there is NO risk in your type of diving SeaJay..You need to open up your vast knowledge to the world. You could make millions overnight.

I can't believe you actually claim to have NO risks while Scuba Diving your special way. Well....More power to you I guess. No argueing with that. Later....

I'm keeping that quote....."Yes. No doubt. Wholeheartedly."

 

[SeaJay]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...

You have insulted many divemasters which I was once. Not to mention many of my friends are divemasters and great DM's at that. So your insulting DM remarks is what it IS to me.

I see. That's an interesting perspective. So... I was right in that you have wrapped yourself up in my words so as to have them apply to you... And it's supposed to be my fault.

I have never dived with you. I have never dived with your buddies. If we did dive together, I can assure you that we would dive together, not "have them DM for me."

When they dive, do they require a DM? If they don't, then why should I?

Sorry you feel personally offended. I suspect that you're fully aware that my experiences have nothing to do with you or your buddies. Furthermore, to assume that my words are somehow wrapped around you and yours shows flat arrogance. Are you guys the center of the diving community or something?

As far as you being safe. You need to look Safe up in a Dictionary before you post again. Nothing in SCUBA is safe.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Statistically, scuba diving is exceedingly safe, at least in comparison to other sports. Sure, scuba is not free from risk... But it's statistically safer than, say, showering. Or driving your car. Or going out for a ride in a boat.

The fact that YOU don't think that scuba is comparatively safe shows that perhaps you aren't diving safely. Which would be somewhat of an epiphany... And would shine a lot of light on the gear configuration arguments that we've had before.

I'm not going to tell you that scuba is "free from risk or danger"... And you're right... That's Webster's definition. If you take that at face value, then nothing in this world could ever be classified as "safe."

The idea, though, is that scuba is comparatively safe. If it's not for you, then might I suggest a change?

...And that change might be to manage your risk... That is, create situations that are safer than they would be if you weren't controlling them. And guess what managing risk requires? The assumption of responsiblity... Exactly the opposite of hiring a DM to do it all for you. Manage your own risk and reap the rewards - including a "safer" dive.

I find the very notion of hiring a DM positively repulsive. I feel that it's a symptom of a much deeper problem: The paradigm shift toward blaming others for your own actions, and the refusal to take responsibility for what you do and say.

...So yes, it disgusts me. No, I don't want someone else touching my life support, and I certainly do not need them as a "guide."

Since there is NO risk in your type of diving SeaJay..You need to open up your vast knowledge to the world. You could make millions overnight.

I can't believe you actually claim to have NO risks while Scuba Diving your special way. Well....More power to you I guess. No argueing with that. Later....

I'm keeping that quote....."Yes. No doubt. Wholeheartedly."

Well, I feel a little suckered into that answer. For that, I thank you.

What was meant by that statement was comparatively safe, as, by definition, there is no such thing as ANY safe activity.

...And it's all to do with risk management. Having a DM "do that for me" seems less than palitable.

 

[CincyBengalsFan]

SeaJay once bubbled...


I see. That's an interesting perspective. So... I was right in that you have wrapped yourself up in my words so as to have them apply to you... And it's supposed to be my fault.

I have never dived with you. I have never dived with your buddies. If we did dive together, I can assure you that we would dive together, not "have them DM for me."

When they dive, do they require a DM? If they don't, then why should I?

Sorry you feel personally offended. I suspect that you're fully aware that my experiences have nothing to do with you or your buddies. Furthermore, to assume that my words are somehow wrapped around you and yours shows flat arrogance. Are you guys the center of the diving community or something?



I wholeheartedly disagree.

Statistically, scuba diving is exceedingly safe, at least in comparison to other sports. Sure, scuba is not free from risk... But it's statistically safer than, say, showering. Or driving your car. Or going out for a ride in a boat.

The fact that YOU don't think that scuba is comparatively safe shows that perhaps you aren't diving safely. Which would be somewhat of an epiphany... And would shine a lot of light on the gear configuration arguments that we've had before.

I'm not going to tell you that scuba is "free from risk or danger"... And you're right... That's Webster's definition. If you take that at face value, then nothing in this world could ever be classified as "safe."

The idea, though, is that scuba is comparatively safe. If it's not for you, then might I suggest a change?

...And that change might be to manage your risk... That is, create situations that are safer than they would be if you weren't controlling them. And guess what managing risk requires? The assumption of responsiblity... Exactly the opposite of hiring a DM to do it all for you. Manage your own risk and reap the rewards - including a "safer" dive.

I find the very notion of hiring a DM positively repulsive. I feel that it's a symptom of a much deeper problem: The paradigm shift toward blaming others for your own actions, and the refusal to take responsibility for what you do and say.

...So yes, it disgusts me. No, I don't want someone else touching my life support, and I certainly do not need them as a "guide."



Well, I feel a little suckered into that answer. For that, I thank you.

What was meant by that statement was comparatively safe, as, by definition, there is no such thing as ANY safe activity.

...And it's all to do with risk management. Having a DM "do that for me" seems less than palitable.

wrapped up into your words? I read them... MY BAD.

I know you didn't attack me or my buddies personally. As you know that I knew this as well. You just wanted to take a cheap a$$ shot at me. Congratulations.

I know what the definition of Safe is. You're the one that has to back paddle to "comparatively safe". Yes I know what that is as well....But you didn't say that in your previous posts....

This is a seajay quote "I might feel differently if, even ONCE, I'd seen some sort of benefit in a DM."

Heaven forbid I get defensive over this kind of remark. But I didn't realize that when you place "I don't mean to be rude, but..." in front of your statement then, it's all good. I'll be sure to use that for now on so I won't be attacked for bashing whatever. Like someone saying they are flawless or diving is safe.

 

[JeffG]

In the context of the question....

Do you hire a DM primarily to ensure that you get the most out of your dive (kinda like a tour guide), is their role more to raise the safety level, (eg. if I were to dive Monastery Beach I should hire a DM to go with me the first time), or is this only a boat dive thing to protect a charter boat captain.

I think a properly trained diver has no need of a DM...Unless of course you want him to haul tanks and fetch you your coffee

This doesn't mean that a blanket statement about DM's being useless can be assumed. Just that you don't need them for day-to-day diving.

 

[O-ring]

...what color snorkel to buy..