What's with the UTD haters?

[bluemed]

Regarding the Z sytem I am diving at the moment and the manifold.

Advantages and disadvantages ;

FACT : The system is easier to don and dof in water than traditional indep. sidemount.
FACT : Recreational single tank configuration is super clean and easy.
FACT ; We can always donate (the discussion if that is necessary or not is another)
FACT : We still can donate bottles, just like on independents, we can still "feather", just like on independent sidemount.
FACT : There is a clear protocol, a clear path how to solve a potential issue on the manifold (not high pressure), we train for that.
FACT : The switch from a UTD backmount diver to sidemount diver is very easy and consistent with the way we dive. personal skills, S-drills and other team skills are still the same, muscle memory is already there.
FACT : You can swim around with one bottle and still donate and go to your necklace.
FACT : There are more failure points.
FACT : It is more expensive.
FACT :We are all free to dive the way we want.
FACT Dive accidents are far more related to human error than to equipment faillure.

I think that the sytem is there for people that want to dive in a DIR minded way and for that purpose it works, does it work for advanced solo cave exploration ?, maybe not.
I don't have an issue with people diving on independent sidemount, I have been trained on indep. SM as well, and I do see and understand what some people say. But....at this very moment, I see no consistency currently available in SM training, divers with 2 stuffed Longhoses, 2 shorthoses, camelbags, steeltanks and wetsuits, no S-drills, no skills and the list goes on.
Not all Sidemount divers dive in Mexico, people dive SM everywhere, in openwater, in drysuits, single tank, with 6 cylinders, in caves in wrecks...there is a need for a clear sytem, just like on backmount.

To me the not having a sytem to teach is a failure point that is far more lethal than an extra isolatable O-ring failure.
And IMHO that is why we can see lots of new P**I Sidemount divers going back to there BCD and octopus, they didnt receive any proper training and yet they dive independent SM.

BTW It is also really nice to single tank sidemount, want it or not, sidemount is here and is not going away, also for the REC divers.
Please have a look, REC Diving on the Z-sytem ;-)

SIDEMOUNT DIVING VIDEO SERIES - PART 1/3: Recreational Sidemount Diving on Lanzarote - YouTube

Peace to us all and let us enjoy diving

Regards
Mike

 

[Subcooled]

I don't hate UTD more than I hate other equipment.

FACT ; We can always donate (the discussion if that is necessary or not is another)

So can I. With independent tanks. Always.

FACT : There is a clear protocol, a clear path how to solve a potential issue on the manifold (not high pressure), we train for that.

Is this related to the extra first stage that you need to carry in your pocket?

I think that the sytem is there for people that want to dive in a DIR minded way and for that purpose it works

Probably true.

BTW It is also really nice to single tank sidemount

In a wetsuit

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I can't consider myself a "hater", but the Z system always struck me as a gear solution looking for a problem. If it works for you, great ... I've read all the advantages it supposedly provides, and frankly they just don't strike me as worth the potential downsides. But I won't hate someone else for diving it. As I get older I find myself becoming more and more a gear agnostic anyway ... I'm more interested in your competence as a diver and a buddy than what equipment you're using.

As for training ... our local UTD instructors are fantastic! I consider them good friends, and willingly hand off my students to either them or our local GUE instructor if it seems like that's a direction the particular student wants to go ... and many do. There's some history and politics between the GUE and UTD organizations, and I'd prefer to leave that to the two businesses and just go play with the individual divers as their goals and personalities seem like a good fit with mine. Works out better that way for everyone ... I can honestly say I have friends in both camps.

Politics sucks ... when I see the politics that comes out of some of the diving camps in other areas, I feel pretty lucky that we seem to be better at getting along in the PNW ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Subcooled]

The harness is a direct copy, and I mean direct copy, of the Razor.

Which seems to be a copy of the belt harnesses I have seen I Sweden and Britain. How many different configurations can you get from a continuous webbing and two small metal plates? The Razor has a few really interesting pieces of plastic though.

It's a little bit like music: there are several bands playing the same genre.

 

[DevonDiver]

With regards the z-manifold, the only people I see recommending it are; (1) the agency which invented/sells it and (2) the agency instructors who sell it. I see zero support for the concept from outside of that clique. It doubles the profitability of each system sold...

I personally, wonder at the logic of breaching a major 'agency stated' core principle (KISS/Simplicity) in the pursuit of a minor protocol adherence (from the mouth donation).

I do have to wonder if that causes a little bias to creep into some defences of the system. Or, for instance, whether the system would be so vehemently defended if it were produced by a manufacturer that wasn't also the agency that 'imposed' the philosophy; i.e. if, hypothetically, it was available already from a non-related manufacturer, would UTD push it so hard.

That isn't 'hating' UTD.

 

[gearhound]

Which seems to be a copy of the belt harnesses I have seen I Sweden and Britain. How many different configurations can you get from a continuous webbing and two small metal plates? The Razor has a few really interesting pieces of plastic though.

It's a little bit like music: there are several bands playing the same genre.

It's kind of funny that it appeared immediately after AG dove with the UTD instructors that took a course from Bogaerts.

Look, I have no qualms with UTD. Like I said, I respect their training programs. With regards to the manifold, hey you paid for it, go ahead and dive it. Just get off of your high horse that, somehow, you're the only one that can donate a long hose to an out of air diver.

I think the OP has an answer to his original question. And I don't think anyone is going to change their opinion about the manifold or Kev. So I think it's time to move on.

 

[Subcooled]

Show me a sidemount system that offers 16lb or more lift for a trimix ice diver, yet does not come with a backplate of some sort. Nomad is a backplate system. Xdeep too. Most systems are designed with small wings meant for wetsuit use only. Like the Razor.

UTD offers one solution in their wing. It may not be optimal for everything though.

I have never used the Z-manifold. And probably never will. But some may like it. That's ok.

In diving there is too much telling others what they must do. Let's just enjoy how diversity makes the world a little bit more interesting.

 

[DevonDiver]

Show me a sidemount system that offers 16lb or more lift for a trimix ice diver, yet does NOT come with a backplate of some sort. Nomad is a backplate system. Xdeep too.

A Comprehensive List of Modern Sidemount Diving Systems

I'm guessing you meant kg, not lbs?

XDeep Stealth 2.0, IMHO, is much closer to a harness-only, than a 'true' backplate. The Razor has 20kg/45lbs and has no backplate.

 

[Subcooled]

Yes meant 16kg. Didn't know that the Razor wing was that big. Thanks for the list.

 

[rjack321]

This is the HEART of the Z-manifold, is it not?

Please explain to me, any of you, in what way I am not compatible with DIR/Doubles divers.

You have turn off the left and right valves intermittently to balance consumption between the 2 tanks. Unlike a manifolded doubles diver who swims around with all three valves open. If you forget, you use up one tank while the other remains full. Or worse if you leave them both open you use up one and then the other sequentially. Your buddy would never know and pretty much can't see your gauges, unlike with doubles where the (one) gauge is on a much longer hose and the whole thing can be shown to a buddy if need be.

The bigger question is: why are you diving in "mixed teams" at all? What benefit does having 2 widely different equipment configurations and valve/gas management requirements bring to the table?

I dive a conventional DIR/HOG set of doubles when I can, its simple and easy for nearly everyone to understand. When they don't fit or the hike is far to long to carry them, I dive sidemount. I dive a Hollis SMS100 with the "Edd" modifications. Hoses are as I set them up. Gas management like independent sidemount, which means for all practical purposed I can't run out. With your low pressure manifold you can go OOA (twice even).

As mentioned, you are not the only person donating a long hose to an OOA diver while in sidemount configuration. Although diving without that silly manifold actually decreases (to nearly nil) the probability of having a catastrophic gear failure which renders you OOQ in the first place. You have a lot more complicated crap back there which really doesn't add boo to "safety" despite all marketing claims to the contrary.