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What's with the UTD haters?

Discussion in 'Sidemount Diving' started by SanDiegoSidemount, Feb 1, 2014.

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  1. SanDiegoSidemount

    SanDiegoSidemount DIR Practitioner

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: San Diego, CA
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    I haven't been around SB that long, only a few months.

    However, in that short time, I've encountered some pretty harsh backlash more than once when I've mentioned that I dive a UTD Z-System (and like it), or mention that I admire how well UTD trains divers.

    What gives? Is there something I'm missing here? Some raging argument or hurt feelings from years past? Please enlighten me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2014
  2. tiki_bill

    tiki_bill Nassau Grouper

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Chicago
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    For sidemount, it's the Z-manifold. A lot of people don't understand the need for it when you can just switch regs. There's some pretty entertaining threads about it. Something tells me this one has potential, too.

    **popcorn**
     
    markmantei and SanDiegoSidemount like this.
  3. ams511

    ams511 Solo Diver

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Miami, Florida
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    Haters just love to hate. If you want some real fun just talk about how great your Air 2 is.
     
    grantwiscour, boy22ban and ajtoady like this.
  4. SanDiegoSidemount

    SanDiegoSidemount DIR Practitioner

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: San Diego, CA
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    Oh yeah, I stepped into that one too. I don't use one, but I don't mind if my buddy does. :duck:
     
  5. tiki_bill

    tiki_bill Nassau Grouper

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Chicago
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  6. Garth

    Garth Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: North Carolina USA
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    Any time you hold others accountable for your own beliefs you may come off sounding harsh or rigid. The UTD, the GUE, the DIR philosophies are very focused on key elements that they believe make for safer diving. I can respect their viewpoint because they are making a stand for "something." I tend to cringe when someone shows little respect for the consequences of their own decisions with gear choice or diving practices. Its important to dive safely and intentionally in my opinion and all of these groups do so according to their beliefs.
     
  7. SanDiegoSidemount

    SanDiegoSidemount DIR Practitioner

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: San Diego, CA
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    I agree with this statement, but am unclear about precisely how it applies. Who is holding whom "accountable for [their] own beliefs" in this case?

    After reading tiki_bill's links above, I now understand the long-standing debate surrounding the UTD manifold vs "pure" sidemount (independent doubles) configuration. But the bashing doesn't seem to stop at a simple equipment critique.

    In addition to criticisms of the UTD manifold, are there other ideological conflicts as well? Or do we think the debate about the gear is as much ideology as equipment? "You are what you dive?"

    Not everyone who dives a BP/W, or a Z System, or whatever, is ready to shave their head and walk through airports in orange robes. Some of us just want to have fun and be safe diving using gear we like.
     
    mdb likes this.
  8. gearhound

    gearhound Tech Instructor

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
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    I think that people will defend whatever they purchased, sometimes blindly. And I think that some people get more annoyed with the people trying to defend the system rather than the actual system itself.
    I have nothing against UTD. In fact I have purchased some of their gear. We had to send back 2 Z-trim wings because they were leaking and a backup light that didn't work. I still own a Delta Hybrid wing. I also have a couple of their videos and manuals. Seems like great training program with skills development.
    However, they are floundering when it comes to side mount diving. Aside from the harness that they copied directly from the Razor, the rest of the stuff is poorly designed. Their larger wings will float away from the body if used with the harness. And if you've read the threads mentioned, then you'll see the implications of the manifold. UTD went from saying their system was only for open water, to now saying it's okay for caves.
    Through courses, I think I've been put through just about every failure possibility that can happen in a cave. It's all been handled without the use of a manifold. So what does the extra $1000 dollars for the Z system buy me? The trade off of not having to switch regulators, but having to turn valves on and off? Do you still have to carry and extra second stage with fitting in your pocket?
    If you can do it safely, dive whatever you want. We are humans and can adapt. Heck, some can even do it intelligently.
     
    markmantei and SanDiegoSidemount like this.
  9. Dsix36

    Dsix36 Solo Diver

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    Another reason for the seemingly hatred for "branded" diving is from people that have no actual knowledge of the group or their philosophies. Education can often go a long way is creating acceptance.
     
    thadont, Dr Dog and SanDiegoSidemount like this.
  10. wedivebc

    wedivebc CCR Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

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    I could be accused of being a hater when it comes to UTD's CCR system which has pretty much faded into oblivion anyway after several manufacturers refused to sell them units for them to cannibalize and turn into a nightmare of QC's and dangly bits. I started a rather active thread on another forum about this topic

    You make an important point here. For the sake of convenience, not having to switch regulators they have taken an elegant and simple diving system known as independent sidemount and introduced multiple failure points which they have to mitigate with numerous drills, skills and a stupid little OC regulator on a QC6 tucked into the drysuit pocket.


     
    nakatomi, PfcAJ and Karl_H like this.
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