What to do when an instructor is out of line?

[Leejnd]

I wasn't going to do this, but I came back to this thread and re-read Divalicious's unfounded attack on the OP, and something struck me: it appears clear that Divalicious didn't even read the original post! To wit:

On that particular note, there's a lot of sympathy / outrage I've noticed for the fact that he spent 25 minutes with the OW class. However, the guy posted he was a DM trainee. Aren't they, like, supposed to get some practice actually monitoring others before actually, you know, doing it?

Um....from the very first post in this thread:

The class was PADI Deep Diver Specialty being taught at Lake Travis, in Austin, TX. Conditions were 6 foot vis, 75 degree water down to 30 ish feet and then about 65 degree water at depth.

Whether the diver was a DM trainee or not was immaterial - the class wasn't a DM class, it was a PADI Deep Diver Specialty course. And there was another student in it, who as far as I can tell, wasn't a DM trainee. Hence, monitoring other students should not have been a part of that dive. The PADI Deep Diver Specialty course does NOT include monitoring other students. If you don't believe me, check out the course description at PADI: Deep Diver Scuba Courses, Training & Adventures - PADI Professional Association of Diving Instructors

Ain't nothing in there about monitoring students in an instructor's OW class.

It's pretty clear that the instructor was double-dipping - using the time that should have been devoted to his paying students in the Deep Diver Specialty course, to give time to the paying students in the OW course. Yeah, that's real ethical.

If there was actually an f-bomb dropped at all, I'd be surprised...but it sounds more to me like a case of a "special snowflake" who got his feelings hurt and feathers overly ruffled and came crying here for a bunch of sympathy from strangers.

So in spite of the plethora of evidence, other witnesses, and even admission from the owner of the dive op that it happened, you think this whole thing is...what...made up? Yeah, okay, and by the way, the Holocaust really did happen, the earth IS round, and there was no gunman on the grassy knoll.

As for your "crying for sympathy" comment, show me one post...just one...where the OP gave any indication that he was looking for sympathy. Sorry, I'm just not seeing it. What I AM seeing are sarcastic, insulting, belittling posts from someone who clearly has an agenda: to destroy the credibility of the OP, and defend the honor of your buddy, the f-bomb-dropping instructor.

Trust me, you failed.

To the OP: Hey, if you ever find yourself in SoCal, drop me a PM. We'll go diving. We've got a boat.

 

[Leejnd]

I would not assume anything about it. This is exactly my point, people are condemning an instructor based entirely on hearsay. I am a bit skeptical about the whole scene because I have been involved with many, many OW classes, lots of instructors, lots of unhappy students, and have never heard a PADI instructor treat a student in the manner that the OP described. That does not mean he's lying or that it did not happen, but it does mean that I would not condemn the instructor based solely on this thread.

When you don't know what happened, it's not fair to pass judgment. That's what the whole "innocent until proven guilty" philosophy of our society is based on.

Mattboy - while a healthy dose of skepticism is always good, we also are all capable of coming to our own conclusions based on the evidence presented. That's also what our society's judgement philosophy is based on: using one's judgement based on evidence. And clearly, for many of us, enough evidence has been presented here to convince us that the incident did occur, largely as decribed.

While we would all love to hear the "other side" (and I'm sure there is one), no matter what else occurred that we don't know about, the parts that have been acceptably proven (as far as I'm concerned) make it clear that this instructor behaved reprehensibly. Even if the OP is a difficult student, asks too many questions, challenges instructors, and is generally a difficult person to have in a class (as has all been suggested in this thread), none of that makes it okay for the instructor to do what he did at the end of that dive. Period.

 

[FrogManMike]

how bout this senario...
what if it were a case that the student was an effing idiot would the instructor still be out of line or would it just be a case of stating the obvious?

I know a lot of Effing idiots and I have told them so does that make me an unethical person or someone who just speaks their mind?

I am not taking any sides just asking an honest question.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

how bout this senario...
what if it were a case that the student was an effing idiot would the instructor still be out of line or would it just be a case of stating the obvious?

The instructor would still be out of line.

There is NEVER a justification for an instructor saying things like that to a student ... first off, because it's counterproductive to the learning process, and secondly because it's just plain unprofessional.

I know a lot of Effing idiots and I have told them so does that make me an unethical person or someone who just speaks their mind?

Depends on your role ... if you're just talking to your buddies, or somebody at the beach, go nutz. If you're an instructor, talking to a student, then there's times when you have to find more constructive ways of getting your message across.

As an instructor, if a student does something idiotic in your class, the first thing you should be asking yourself is what you could (should) have done differently to prevent that response.

I am not taking any sides just asking an honest question.

Honestly, instructors are held to a different standard than non-instructors. If you can't manage your behavior in a professional way, then you shouldn't be an instructor.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[goonsquad]

FrogMan- Please never teach with that attitude... Now if you're just a casual observer and some moron does something stupid, no you're not unethical, but you're also not being paid to teach a skill.

 

[FrogManMike]

greatful diver and goon squad
you both answered exactly what I wanted to get across.
your answers were my thoughts as well.

 

[Wookie]

It is interesting. I've taught a lot of students. I've certified fewer than I taught. Not all of my students got certified, not all of them completed their classes. It isn't because they were f"n idiots, it's because I am. Sometimes I just can't get through to a student. I don't see that as a failure on their part, but as a failure on mine. Yes, I refund a student when I fail to teach them. Yes, I'll give them the whole year to get the class done. Yes, I'll hand the student off to another instructor to finish them, and try to learn from the process. Try to learn how to teach the skill I failed to teach. Why would I do this? Because if someone wants to learn to dive, I want them to have the best instruction possible. After all, diving is a dangerous sport, and new divers need to be prepared to face that danger. For any instructor to want something less than that for their student does a dis-service to the student, as well as a dis-service to the scuba industry as a whole. I really don't want to see Hotpuppy (or any other diver) on the Spree until he has shown MASTERY of the skills for the card he is presenting me. Anything less shows a lack of respect for those of us who try to make better divers.

 

[halocline]

...., none of that makes it okay for the instructor to do what he did at the end of that dive. Period.

You mean, it's not okay for the instructor to do what the OP said he did at the end of the dive, and I wholeheartedly agree that no dive instructor should yell or use obscenities at a student, especially in front of other students. In fact, that type of behavior is so inappropriate that any reasonable dive shop would terminate an instructor who did so. I wonder why this was not done in this case.

Have you ever witnessed a recreational dive instructor maliciously call one of his/her students obscenities in front of other students?

 

[Leejnd]

You mean, it's not okay for the instructor to do what the OP said he did at the end of the dive, and I wholeheartedly agree that no dive instructor should yell or use obscenities at a student, especially in front of other students. In fact, that type of behavior is so inappropriate that any reasonable dive shop would terminate an instructor who did so. I wonder why this was not done in this case.

Have you ever witnessed a recreational dive instructor maliciously call one of his/her students obscenities in front of other students?

No, I personally have not witnessed it. Had I, I personally would have reported the offending instructor to the appropriate certifying agency. But just because I personally have never seen something like this has no bearing on the matter at hand. I also have never personally witnessed an airplane crash, or a diver death. But both can, and do, happen. Thank God I've never seen either.

As for whether this actually happened - you are free to continue with your (IMO overzealous) skepticism. I, personally, have read enough that I, personally, believe that it happened.

 

[SailNaked]

So I was not going to post in this trash fest, because the shop name is obvious, and the OP was happy so nothing more needed to be said.
then I got all pissed off at SB moderators for removing the shops name and not doing the same when another shop in Houston had one drunk member at another trash fest. (no link provided for fear of increasing the rank on google). and now on google if you search for the other shop by name all you get is 7 pages of SB posts and the first whole page is people that have never been to our shop or even Texas supporting that post. really people if you have no first hand knowledge do you really need to make a comment?
I love Scuba, and I am proud to be an instructor, at my shop or any shop I may teach for. we all have a bad day, what is the more important is what we do right after we make a mistake or sober up as the case may be. according to the OP the shop did the right thing at a cost to themselves, and at the least if the instructor said anything close to what was reported I hope he sent an apology.

now is there any way to change the name in the other post I was talking about. but will not mention because it will bring it up again.