What to do when an instructor is out of line?

[Jim Lapenta]

Just thought I'd throw this out there because it's the one thing that stuck out in my mind the whole time...

I just a week ago finished my OW cert and the 5th and last dive was after we had finished all the required skills. We were all congratulated and out temp cards handed out. Then the instructor showed us a map of the quarry and told us to plan the final dive. The only instruction we were given is to keep it to 60'. When we finished the plan, we dove the plan. All went relatively well, though we had to stop for a little extra time for equalizing. When we got out and went back to debrief the dive the instructor told us that any further training we took with this shop would have us planning as much of the dives as was possible. It seems to me (note - of course I'm a NOOB and admittedly know very little) that one of the most important parts of the training for deep diving is planning the dive. Wouldn't the planning be VERY important in executing a deep dive? Shouldn't the plan have been laid out by the students and then critiqued by the instructor if it was missing parts or off in any way???

This was an increased risk dive (way more-so because of the very limited visibility) that had no plan... No discussion of signals, which seems like an absolute sin in those sort of conditions (evident by the lack of being able to advise of an equalization problem...) Why was there no checking back to make sure her buddy was descending alright??? (I would guess because there was no discussion about what should be done to make the dive go as well as possible)

I don't know... Maybe I'm too caught up in the whole plan away small issues so that they can't turn into this sort of mess...

Agreed the instructor sounds like a let's just get it done kinda guy. OK when a ditch needs dug but worthless when it comes to teaching people how to stay alive.

 

[elmer fudd]

I am amazed that anyone would defend someone who puts students at such risk to "get it done". Of course most people think that an instructor who did not kill them is awesome. Also selecting a site with such horrible condtions if they were indeed so bad does not indicate very good judgment on the part of the instructor. It does demonstrate a degree of greed though. A student gets stuck in a tree at 55 feet on the deep dive, which by the way 75 feet and do a combo lock is not a deep dive in my book-may meet standards but is pretty cheap way to do it, loses a fin. Dive is over. Reset and do another time when conditions are better.

I also question your judgment given the admitted medical condition. Even though you gave the ok to continue had something happened I'd be willing to bet that your family would have sued the pants off everyone and the lawyer would have seriously tried to minimize your lack of good judgment which was clearly displayed.

I agree about the first part of this, but not the second.

The dive plan, Hotpuppy described for his class was insane. Having new divers sit at depth for a long period depleting their AL80's while they wait to do a "deep" dive is just nuts. I don't think anything more needs to be said about that. Outside of an emergency situation it's inexcusable.

As far as diving with a medical condition though, not too many of us make it past age 60 without at least something going wrong. Myself, I've had a heart condition, (intermittent atrial fibrillation), since age 27 and have been cardioverted twice. Does it make diving significantly more dangerous for me? Yes, it possibly does. The thing is though, you don't live your life in a bubble just because you were dealt some bad cards. I could also have problems while hanging off a power pole 25' above the ground, (which I do from time to time), or while driving or at any other time. At age 41 I'm not ready to take up shuffleboard and move to a retirement community. Both my GP and my cardiologist have given me the OK to dive, so I intend to.

 

[Scubadam]

You did do the right thing. The instructor shouldn't ever cuss a student out. I have been very lucky with my instructors both at Aqua Ventures in Maryland, and Red Sail Sports in Aruba, they have all been very professional. As for dive shops in Texas, I have never been to Texas so I don't know what the standards are for the dive shops, but I am sure that instructors are not to be cussing at the students.

 

[Divalicious]

I am amazed that anyone would defend someone who puts students at such risk to "get it done". Of course most people think that an instructor who did not kill them is awesome. Also selecting a site with such horrible condtions if they were indeed so bad does not indicate very good judgment on the part of the instructor. It does demonstrate a degree of greed though. A student gets stuck in a tree at 55 feet on the deep dive, which by the way 75 feet and do a combo lock is not a deep dive in my book-may meet standards but is pretty cheap way to do it, loses a fin. Dive is over. Reset and do another time when conditions are better.

Respectfully, Jim, I think either you're projecting or maybe take a view that's too narrowly conservative when it comes to "unsafe" v. "unpleasant."

I.e.:

Instructor had no "get it done" mentality. Rather, Instructor assessed his students, listened to us, but kept safety first. He was sound, competent, considerate, and able to discern between situations actually unsafe and those just not as pretty as a resort in, say, Bonaire.

The shop, which has been around for a long time, turns out great instructors, like mine, who are the kind of folks you do want to go in the water with, and trust to go into the water with, and take students of various experience and be responsible for them.

Btw, Houston has no site deeper than 60', so to do any kind of true deep dive, it means either a 2.5 hour drive to Austin- i.e., Lake Travis, or an 1.5 hour drive to go offshore on an oil rig. The Gulf being a lot less sound and a lot more expensive... folks here go to Lake Travis.

In my case, having driven 2.5 hours, we were met with some crappy, and comic, conditions. But Instructor didn't put us into the water with 8 foot waves nor even when it was actually raining. It wasn't fun, but it wasn't truly hazardous. And it definitely was ...memorable

In an odd way, I've actually been a bit thankful for the bad lakes down here. Learning to navigate in 0-10 feet visibility, for example, has arguably stood me in better stead than doing so in 60-80+ vis of the Caribbean.

I also question your judgment given the admitted medical condition. Even though you gave the ok to continue had something happened I'd be willing to bet that your family would have sued the pants off everyone and the lawyer would have seriously tried to minimize your lack of good judgment which was clearly displayed.

Sorry, but that's kind of silly, and your post comes off pretty prickish on this point. To-wit:

If you take the hardline view no diabetic should dive, so be it. DAN and the majority of the medical community, however, disagree.

If your complaint is just to these particular conditions... eh.

I've been an insulin dependent diabetic for 25 years. I've climbed up and down hills before, and I check my blood before I go in the water and make sure I eat enough, etc. I've got the standard releases and full, personal, medical clearance to dive. I'm also an attorney, licensed in 2 states, so unless Instructor was to hit me over the head and toss me in the lake... liability exposure wasn't any more for any other student who, again, may be subjected to conditions not as pristine as a giant stride off a pier to a tranquil reef in the Caribbean.

My point was, and remains, however: this particular Instructor that hotpuppy went on about is a level-headed guy, incredibly considerate, knowledgable, able to handle a variety of stressors and exercise the discretion required of competent instructors.

If there was actually an f-bomb dropped at all, I'd be surprised...but it sounds more to me like a case of a "special snowflake" who got his feelings hurt and feathers overly ruffled and came crying here for a bunch of sympathy from strangers.

On that particular note, there's a lot of sympathy / outrage I've noticed for the fact that he spent 25 minutes with the OW class. However, the guy posted he was a DM trainee. Aren't they, like, supposed to get some practice actually monitoring others before actually, you know, doing it?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

They are NOT supposed to be combining classes. That is just stupid. Forcing AOW or Deep students to wait around while at the same time working with an OW class is reckless. While they are "monitoring" they are using up gas that might be needed in an emergency.That an instructor would do this sets a very bad example as well as perhaps risking a serious incident. Reporting that kind of behavior is not only wise but as a DM candidate mandatory. And as for the short cut with the deep dive ( and that is what it was, standards may say 70 or even 80 ft is good enough but it does not give a good idea of what happens when the crap hits the fan at 100. And out of curiosity what SAC rate did you use to calculate your gas requirements? What was your rock bottom pressure requirement for that depth and the tank you were using? With a good instructor this should have been part of your gas plan.

 

[Hammerhead]

My main point in this thread is that since not a single one of us was there as a witness, it's probably not fair to call the instructor the kind of names he's being blasted for calling the student.

Calling him names? The instructor in question doesn't seem unduly upset at the thought of calling someone else a "f***ing idiot", does he?

So I guess you were there, witnessed the whole thing, and now know what the instructor is thinking, right?

Or do you just believe everything you read on the internet?

No mattboy, I was not there. Nor were you.

Funnily enough, I don't believe everything I read on the 'net either, but thanks for implying my gullibility.

That said, there was enough information posted here to ID the outfit - it's already been done. Divalicious has done so, and so did someone else earlier on in the thread.

It seems fair to say that if Hotpuppy was simply lying about the foul language, we'd have a first-party witness on here calling him out. Wouldn't you say?

 

[Leejnd]

I have now read every single post in this thread (yeah, I know, not the best use of someone's time, but I was fascinated). I had a feeling that at some point there was going to be some dogpiling on the OP, and of course it happened - and not too far into the thread, either. Actually it took longer than I was expecting!

I just wanted to say to the OP: ignore them. It's inevitable on SB -- I've seen it more times than I can count. Anyone who posts anything about a dive in which something went wrong, is going to get the classic SB attack, and you got it in spades.

I once posted about a bad incident that happened to me (defective rental gear, deficient and dangerous DM practices), and even though I openly acknowledged the part that I played in the debacle (i.e. "took responsibility for my own errors"), I got roundly attacked and told that I should stop blaming everyone else for my own mistakes, and should "take some responsibility". In fact, the very FIRST post in my thread listed BY NUMBER the mistakes that I'd made, and the lessons I'd learned from them. And STILL there were uncountable posts saying "stop blaming everyone else, take some responsibility yourself".

And sure 'nuff, I saw the exact same thing here. Right from the beginning you made it very clear that you were well aware there were things you could probably have done differently, and you were even eager to get feedback to help you learn what they were, and grow as a diver from your errors. And yet people STILL accused you of blaming it all on the instructor and refusing to acknowledge that you did anything wrong.

I also got attacked for having posted at all, and for continuing to respond to the thread. I got accused of seeking "a pound of flesh" (as did you), of wanting to "crucify" the dive op (as did you), and repeatedly riduculed for continuing to respond to the ongoing posts in the thread that I'd started (as did you). Which is all pretty stupid, because HELLO, this is a discussion forum...what are we here for if not to DISCUSS? As I said in my own thread: hey, if you don't want to participate in the discussion...DON'T! Is someone forcing your fingers onto your keyboard and nailing your eyes to the monitor and MAKING you read the thread? If people are still posting to it, still asking questions, why should they try to shame you into not responding? You are talking about what happened, seeking opinions, and I daresey even LEARNING something from all the discussion - as are lots of others.

To those who have attacked the OP for continuing to respond to posts in the thread...methinks perhaps you don't quite get the concept of a message forum. Perhaps you should find something else to do with your time that makes more sense to you.

seeing as your post above is then followed by umpteen more seen below...

Yeah, thanks for reposting all his posts. We all wouldn't have known that he continued to post if you hadn't pointed it out to us. However, your rebuke doesn't make much sense, given that what he'd said was that he wasn't going to provide additional UPDATES...not that he wasn't going to continue to talk about it. This is a MESSAGE FORUM. Google it.

@ Hotpuppy, you have achieved a level of maturity I never expect to equal. Keep up diving, I hope to dive with you one day - you sound like a great guy.

I agree 100%. I have been thoroughly impressed with the OP's grace throughout this thread.

Oh dear lord. I've read this whole thread, and there's been some drama-whoring, prompting me to post.

---

---

A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

name removed at OP's request

---

[snip]

If angry words ensued after a dive and someone even dropped an f-bomb, get over it. Get a refund. But going to PADI on this or desiring some apology written in blood or sympathy from Scubaboard sounds like hotpuppy is being a bit of a prima donna drama llama.

Yeah, that was a classy move - naming the shop after many explicit requests from the OP not to. Nice.

Also, you have completely mischaracterized his actions. He had every right to go to PADI - assuming his redition was even partially accurate (and there has been enough info in this thread to convince me that most important aspects ARE accurate), the instructor acted in an unsafe and highly unprofessional manner, and IMO the OP not only had a right, but a RESPONSIBILITY to report him. Good for you that you had good experiences with him - but that doesn't negate what happened to the OP. He didn't request an "apology written in blood" (ya like a little hyperbole, I see)...he simply wanted an acknowledgement that there was at least a recognition that the actions of the instructor were unacceptable, and an assurance that it wouldn't happen again...and yes, an apology - all perfectly reasonable expectations.

And he clearly didn't post this on SB for sympathy - he did so to increase his own understanding of what occurred, get the opinions and input from other experienced divers, and help him determine his next course of action. That's what SB is here for.

I'm happy to see that the situation was resolved to the OP's satisfaction, and I hope that the hullabaloo that ensued will result in the instructor rethinking his approach, practices, and behaviors with students.

 

[ReefHound]

Instructor had no "get it done" mentality. Rather, Instructor assessed his students, listened to us, but kept safety first. He was sound, competent, considerate, and able to discern between situations actually unsafe and those just not as pretty as a resort in, say, Bonaire.
...
It wasn't fun, but it wasn't truly hazardous.

Given that you needed the card for an upcoming trip to the Clipper and the other student needed the card for a trip later that week to Australia, it certainly appears that your backs were against the wall in terms of scheduling. If the dives had been scrubbed, when exactly was the other guy going to make it up? Now it may be true that this scheduling played no part in the mind of the instructor but it is possible.

As for hazardous versus pretty, you were the one who said you got stuck and lost a fin. That sounds pretty hazardous to me. Many divers consider those pecans to be an overhead environment since you often cannot ascend directly to the surface. They pose a serious entanglement hazard even in good viz.

 

[divezonescuba]

Moderators:

You neglected to remove the initials of the dive shop in question in your earlier edit. Anyone familiar with the shops in Houston could easily identify who they are.

 

[halocline]

No mattboy, I was not there. Nor were you.


It seems fair to say that if Hotpuppy was simply lying about the foul language, we'd have a first-party witness on here calling him out. Wouldn't you say?

I would not assume anything about it. This is exactly my point, people are condemning an instructor based entirely on hearsay. I am a bit skeptical about the whole scene because I have been involved with many, many OW classes, lots of instructors, lots of unhappy students, and have never heard a PADI instructor treat a student in the manner that the OP described. That does not mean he's lying or that it did not happen, but it does mean that I would not condemn the instructor based solely on this thread.

When you don't know what happened, it's not fair to pass judgment. That's what the whole "innocent until proven guilty" philosophy of our society is based on.