What to do when an instructor is out of line?

[seaducer]

I still do not see the need for people to continue to remind us that "we don't know what actually happened" and "all we have here is this thread". I honestly think that's pretty obvious.

Oh, I thought you were firmly in the camp that there was "evidence" warranting the repsonses that we have seen in this thread? Someone posted that we can't be sure what happened and you called that "overzealous skepticism".

Now you are saying the fact that there is no evidence and we don't know what actually happened is "pretty obvious".

Which is it?

 

[D_B]

What she said

 

[JB]

I can't believe this has gone on for so long. In general everyone is in agreement that the Instructor was wrong, but have we not all lost it with someone on some occasion? While it is never OK for a teacher to loose it with a student, we certainly don't know the provocation here. The OP has taken great pains to portray himself as calm, reasonable, diligent etc. Maybe this incident in the dive was the straw that broke the camel's back, and one would have to assume a lot went on before this point.

When I teach the most painful students are the smartasses. "thank you for that interesting comment, that topic will be covered in some detail in Cave 3, but right now we are focussing on OW 1." It can detract from the other students learning, waists time and generally disrupts the class. There are techniques for dealing with this situation, but I guess after a while you just have to be rude to stop continual interuptions, and off topic comments.

My point is that the instructor (and dive shop) has been tried, found guilty, hung drawn and quartered, on this forum without hearing the other side of the story. I think the shop has shown class by not trying this issue in a public forum.

An Extreme Example: It's never OK to take someone elses life, but sometimes the mitigating circumstances result in no penalty to the murderer! What were the mitigating circumstance here??

 

[Leejnd]

Oh, I thought you were firmly in the camp that there was "evidence" warranting the repsonses that we have seen in this thread? Someone posted that we can't be sure what happened and you called that "overzealous skepticism".

Now you are saying the fact that there is no evidence and we don't know what actually happened is "pretty obvious".

Which is it?

I'm saying that IT DOESN'T MATTER! None of us know who the instructor/dive op ARE! None of us are doing ANYTHING but having a simple conversation about something that somebody said happened. We're TALKING, man! Talking. That's all! Why get so in a lather about it? What are the responses doing? NOTHING! It's just typed words on a monitor.

Yeah, I for one personally believe, based on what I've read, that it happened. So what? What do I really know? Nothing! Some nameless, faceless guy on a message board...some unnamed instructor at an unknown dive op in Texas. The dude asked our opinions. We gave them. That's what a message board is for!

Seriously, if the concept of talking about things that we didn't personally witness is too upsetting for you, perhaps you shouldn't be participating in a discussion forum.

 

[Leejnd]

My point is that the instructor (and dive shop) has been tried, found guilty, hung drawn and quartered, on this forum without hearing the other side of the story. I think the shop has shown class by not trying this issue in a public forum.

Really? Who are they? What's been the impact of this hanging, drawing and quartering? How CAN there be an impact when none of us know who they are?

I think you're forgetting that the OP is the one who showed class by not naming the shop here. He certainly had every right to describe the incident, as he saw it, an ask for the opinions of other divers. That's what these types of forums are for. "Hey, fellow divers, this thing happened to me, whadaya think?" He wanted to know what we thought about it, and what we would do if it happened to us. We responded by giving our opinions based on his description of the incident.

Where's the harm? Where's the foul? Where's all this hanging and drawing and quartering?

As for the dive shop, I don't think they showed "class" so much as they exercised some basic smarts and self preservation! Why SHOULD they ID themselves? The OP didn't ID them, and they certainly don't come off in too flattering a light here.

This thread has now devolved into people attacking the OP's right to post his story at all...and our right to respond with our opinions. Which, in my opinion, is all pretty silly. If y'all think people shouldn't post their stories, or respond with their opinions, again I gotta ask...what the heck are you doing in a discussion forum?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I can't believe this has gone on for so long. In general everyone is in agreement that the Instructor was wrong, but have we not all lost it with someone on some occasion? While it is never OK for a teacher to loose it with a student, we certainly don't know the provocation here.

Provocation is irrelevent ... when you sign up to be a professional, a certain standard of behavior is expected. It comes with the job. A dive instructor should never be excused for "losing it".

The OP has taken great pains to portray himself as calm, reasonable, diligent etc. Maybe this incident in the dive was the straw that broke the camel's back, and one would have to assume a lot went on before this point.

Why would one have to assume that?

When I teach the most painful students are the smartasses. "thank you for that interesting comment, that topic will be covered in some detail in Cave 3, but right now we are focussing on OW 1." It can detract from the other students learning, waists time and generally disrupts the class. There are techniques for dealing with this situation, but I guess after a while you just have to be rude to stop continual interuptions, and off topic comments.

No, you do not! Instructors who respond to rudeness with rudeness are stooping to the level of the student ... in which case, you are giving up your authority in the class. In your example, the appropriate response is "That is beyond the scope of this class. If you are interested, see me after class is over and we'll discuss it." If a student is disrupting the class, you speak to them about it privately. I've only ever had to do that once, and the conversation began with something along the lines of "If you want to continue in this class, I'm going to have to see a change in your behavior." The student got the message ... privately and professionally.

There is never ... ever ... a valid reason for an instructor to call a student names in front of others. That approach never produces constructive results.

My point is that the instructor (and dive shop) has been tried, found guilty, hung drawn and quartered, on this forum without hearing the other side of the story. I think the shop has shown class by not trying this issue in a public forum.

I'll disagree ... I think we've addressed the issues as presented. With the exception of the OP, we don't even know who the instructor is. The shop has handled it appropriately with respect to the student. We don't know how they handled it with the instructor ... nor do we particularly need to ... that's between employee and employer.

An Extreme Example: It's never OK to take someone elses life, but sometimes the mitigating circumstances result in no penalty to the murderer! What were the mitigating circumstance here??

I cannot conceive of any mitigating circumstances for calling a student that name, much less doing it publicly. I cannot conceive of any valid reason for asking students planning a deep dive to sit on a platform for 25 minutes prior to their dive. I can easily think of a bunch of downsides to both of those decisions.

Diving is all about making good decisions ... dive instruction even more so. The incident as described doesn't give me confidence in this instructor's ability to make good decisions. Instructors are supposed to be setting an example for their students ... this isn't the example I would want them to see.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[redacted]

The shop has handled it appropriately with respect to the student. We don't know how they handled it with the instructor ... nor do we particularly need to ... that's between employee and employer.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

If I were in Houston seeking scuba training, I would want to know more about this incident and how the shop handled it with the instructor. So maybe it is an issue between the employee and employer and potential future customers who would like to avoid a similar incident.

 

[TSandM]

I think if I were in Houston, I would PM the OP and ask privately for the name of the shop and/or instructor.

I think there were some interesting issues in this story, relating to what tolerable behavior from an instructor is, what a shop should do about misbehavior on the part of one of their instructors, and what a shop should ethically do with respect to money in the situation described. It's all good stuff to think about and discuss; we don't need to get down to specific names to benefit from the discussion.

I think the biggest lesson was that, because all parties involved remained calm, polite and rational, a resolution was reached that kept everybody more or less happy.

 

[Leejnd]

I think there were some interesting issues in this story, relating to what tolerable behavior from an instructor is, what a shop should do about misbehavior on the part of one of their instructors, and what a shop should ethically do with respect to money in the situation described. It's all good stuff to think about and discuss; we don't need to get down to specific names to benefit from the discussion.

I completely agree. That's why I'm rather baffled at all the people raging over the fact that we had the discussion at all.

I think the biggest lesson was that, because all parties involved remained calm, polite and rational, a resolution was reached that kept everybody more or less happy.

Again, agree. Which is also why I'm baffled at some of the attacks on the OP that have taken place in here.

I don't know the OP, and I'm not here to defend him, although it might seem like that. I just get tired of watching people get eviscerated in here anytime they post anything about a dive that went wrong. It's those types of responses that cause people to NOT post their stories - to our detriment, because then we don't hear about the stuff that happens, and we don't get a chance to talk about it and LEARN from the situations that other divers encounter. I can't tell you the number of divers I've talked to who have either quit posting to SB entirely, or who tell me they would NEVER in a million years post their own stories, because they don't want to open themselves up to being attacked, insulted, accused of lying, and all the other ugly stuff that happens in here. It's happend to me too - I posted my own story once, and I got roughed up pretty bad. It definitely gives someone pause for thought before they'll consider posting anything that might have happened to them. It's not a pleasant thing to experience, and I don't blame the OP for not coming back to this thread (in case anyone hasn't noticed that).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't know the OP, and I'm not here to defend him, although it might seem like that. I just get tired of watching people get eviscerated in here anytime they post anything about a dive that went wrong. It's those types of responses that cause people to NOT post their stories - to our detriment, because then we don't hear about the stuff that happens, and we don't get a chance to talk about it and LEARN from the situations that other divers encounter. I can't tell you the number of divers I've talked to who have either quit posting to SB entirely, or who tell me they would NEVER in a million years post their own stories, because they don't want to open themselves up to being attacked, insulted, accused of lying, and all the other ugly stuff that happens in here. It's happend to me too - I posted my own story once, and I got roughed up pretty bad. It definitely gives someone pause for thought before they'll consider posting anything that might have happened to them. It's not a pleasant thing to experience, and I don't blame the OP for not coming back to this thread (in case anyone hasn't noticed that).

LOL ... it's just part of the culture, LeeAnne ... sometimes it feels friendlier in The Pub than in Basic Scuba Discussions ... :shocked2:

Coupla years back I posted a story about a dive that went wrong and got told by someone that I need to get out and dive more ... I guess 275 to 300 dives a year isn't enough for some folks ...

Best thing about internet discussion is that everybody gets to be an expert ... gotta just learn to roll with it sometimes ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)