What really is an "Advanced Open Water" diver?

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I am an "experienced" PADI OW diver, who has dived with a lot of different dive ops in many parts of the world. From what I have observed, the dive ops really don't care what kind of cert card(s) you have, and they want to see how you dive and handle yourself before taking you on the more challenging dives. Once they determine you are a capable diver that is not going to be a pain in the ass to the DM, any dive buddy they put you with, or the dive group as a whole, you get to dive to whatever depth within recreational limits, or diving condition that the group is doing that day. I am sure there are dive ops that have hard rules about having an AOW card to do certain dives, but I have not yet been refused a dive that I wanted to do. If ever refused, I would just say "Really? You would rather have a 10 dive AOW wonder as a dive buddy on this dive?" And then I would go find a different dive op, or have an ice cold beer to accompany the best meal in town. Life is not all about diving!
 
I am an "experienced" PADI OW diver, who has dived with a lot of different dive ops in many parts of the world. From what I have observed, the dive ops really don't care what kind of cert card(s) you have, and they want to see how you dive and handle yourself before taking you on the more challenging dives. Once they determine you are a capable diver that is not going to be a pain in the ass to the DM, any dive buddy they put you with, or the dive group as a whole, you get to dive to whatever depth within recreational limits, or diving condition that the group is doing that day. I am sure there are dive ops that have hard rules about having an AOW card to do certain dives, but I have not yet been refused a dive that I wanted to do. If ever refused, I would just say "Really? You would rather have a 10 dive AOW wonder as a dive buddy on this dive?" And then I would go find a different dive op, or have an ice cold beer to accompany the best meal in town. Life is not all about diving!
Good to hear. I have no interest in negotiating my ability to dive with any operator
 
It really doesn't help that you and others continue to sow confusion. How about trying to clarify rather than criticize?
What PADI writes is unambiguous. That some willfully misinterpret what is written is shameful.
I fully understand how the language is basically legalese. Your apologist statements do not nullify the simple fact that almost all people assume AOW divers are advanced divers.

Would you like to try again?

Regardless, I'm not criticising in reality what I consider brilliant marketing. I think PADI's marketing should be studied in business schools. It is that good.
 
Regardless, I'm not criticising in reality what I consider brilliant marketing. I think PADI's marketing should be studied in business schools. It is that good.

Totally agree with you on this point and it was something I mentioned to my daughter when she was doing her Dive Master course seven years ago.
 
Totally agree with you on this point and it was something I mentioned to my daughter when she was doing her Dive Master course seven years ago.
It does motivate people to take con ed. It doesn't matter if it doesn't deliver what people think they are getting, and I'm not saying that as criticism. Most agencies have "adventure diver" for 5ish dive certification that grants the same privileges. It just doesn't have that same ring to it.
 
I am an "experienced" PADI OW diver, who has dived with a lot of different dive ops in many parts of the world. From what I have observed, the dive ops really don't care what kind of cert card(s) you have, and they want to see how you dive and handle yourself before taking you on the more challenging dives. Once they determine you are a capable diver that is not going to be a pain in the ass to the DM, any dive buddy they put you with, or the dive group as a whole, you get to dive to whatever depth within recreational limits, or diving condition that the group is doing that day. I am sure there are dive ops that have hard rules about having an AOW card to do certain dives, but I have not yet been refused a dive that I wanted to do. If ever refused, I would just say "Really? You would rather have a 10 dive AOW wonder as a dive buddy on this dive?" And then I would go find a different dive op, or have an ice cold beer to accompany the best meal in town. Life is not all about diving!
The scenario, you mention is that you already dived with them recently. If you check in in the morning for a 30m wreck dive with a dive charter, I would not be surprised that they would ask you to do a check dive at your expense. I am with @scubadada on this; why bother? Pay the darn course and you will never ever have to deal with this :). You also spare the others as well. Try to empathize with the dive op, you will pull out an ICD* certification and put him on a difficult spot, they will want to believe you but they will be worried until they see what you are capable of in water.

*I can dive
 
My view, as only a recreational diver, is that ( as mentioned back about page 2 or 3 of thread) PADI AOW is what it says it is - "about advancing your skills." The only real debate for me would be if the course really does advance one's skills by performing only one dive of several different specialties, which I suppose is meant to provide the motivation for one to then take a full specialty course. I didn't feel that my skills were advanced, but rather at the time I took AOW, after 100 dives, my memory was refreshed about a few things (in fairness, I did pick up a few new things.)

Really, the only truly confusing thing about AOW and thus OW is the depth limit - example: those who write here on SB that because they have only OW certification, they are looking for ops that won't take them below 60 ft'. or similar questions. Where does the idea of the limit come from? IMO, PADI (as well as other organizations) is clear that maximum depth for recreational diving is 130' (also what my LDS taught me back in 1998) but that divers should only dive within the limits of their training and experience - either take some course training to learn about it or learn through experiences. PADI, and others, materials does refer to maximum depth limits and breaks depths down by certification level, but there is nothing that says one gets certified to certain depths. One can go to the websites of many different dive ops though and find descriptions of courses they offer that make it sound as if there is a limit at each level of recreational diving and they may advertise courses with sayings such as "want to dive deeper?" and "get certified to dive deeper!"

I've yet to experience an AOW certified diver boast that they are "advanced" and therefore, higher and mightier than everyone else. On the other hand I have experienced those who said they have "dove around the world" or "have done 1000 dives" tell stories of how great they were (only to show that they too could make mistakes when diving.) For the most part, my observation is that divers are great people and like to share experiences, and certification level makes no difference. Some are happy where they are (ME!) and some want to gain more knowledge and skills. It is very unlikely one would see a difference between me, at 15-20 dives a year, and a diver who dives 100-200 dives a year doing a recreational dive. And, does everybody on SB, or in a dive shop, or in a dive boat assume that AOW certification means a diver is somehow "ADVANCED"? I don't assume that every person who goes from a driver's learner permit or probationary license to an operator's license is somehow a better driver all of a sudden - I think we all know better than that!

After my OW course, I was never approached by my LDS, then a PADI affiliate and now SDI, to take AOW. DIveTech (PADI affiliiated), in Grand Cayman, where I did my checkout dives never asked me about taking AOW. Seventeen different dive ops (all Caribbean, Mexico, and Hawaii) never offered me the opportunity to take AOW. I initiated taking AOW when I went to my LDS ~5 years ago. Mainly because they knew most of my diving was clear, warm water diving, they suggested I take it while on one of my trips, as opposed to a quarry in Indiana. No pressure - I had to seek it out. I only took the course after reading several threads here on SB and developing a fear that some op may tell me I couldn't do a dive because of depth or a wreck was too advanced. As with @scubadada AOW was simply a pathway for me that would prevent me from missing out on a dive when an op did require it. To date, the card has made no difference. I've found, with my type of diving (on a boat) you are going to go where the op goes. Before AOW, 34 of my first 100 dives were between 65-110'. I'd been around 19 wrecks, penetrating/swimming through 9 of them. A lot is just dependent on where you go.

* As an fyi, none of my post is in support of nor a putdown of PADI. Had my LDS or the dive op in Mexico been SSI, NAUI, SDI, etc... instead of PADI when I got OW and AOW, then that's what my certification would have been. Didn't make any difference to me - I'm just a recreational diver!!
 
Where does the idea of the limit come from? IMO, PADI (as well as other organizations) is clear that maximum depth for recreational diving is 130' (also what my LDS taught me back in 1998) but that divers should only dive within the limits of their training and experience
If something happens to you, and the dive op based your depth limit on the recommended depth for your cert (60', 100', 130') or on the training depth limits of the cert dives, then the op has relied on a training agency's judgement, not the op's own.

If they expand beyond that based on their judgement of your described and experience or on their observing you, then they may need to defend that judgement, which could be much harder and more expensive. If is safer for them to remove the 'and experience' from the depth limit calculation and just rely on the training part and the recommended depth from the training agency.

It also makes checkin faster. Folks with OW: boat one for the shallower dive; AOW: boat two for the bit deeper dive. No need for a dive experience interview with each new person.

When boats do this, these could be the reasons.

And boat two would be the advanced boat, full of, wait for it ..., advanced divers.:wink: (Because they are no longer the entry classification of autonomous diver.)

ETA: AOW is an important class, but there are other classes that strengthen your core diving skills regardless of depth. Such as things like Recreational Fundamentals, Essentials, or Fundamentals. They have only OW as a prerequisite, emphasizing that they are core skills, not more advanced ones.
 
Where does the idea of the limit come from?
If something happens to you, and the dive op based your depth limit on the recommended depth for your cert (60', 100', 130') or on the training depth limits of the cert dives, then the op has relied on a training agency's judgement, not the op's own.

Agree with that. I should have clarified my question - my thinking was where does the idea of the limit come from in one's mind after becoming certified that makes them question what depth they are actually certified to do.

If they expand beyond that based on their judgement of your described and experience or on their observing you, then they may need to defend that judgement, which could be much harder and more expensive. If is safer for them to remove the 'and experience' from the depth limit calculation and just rely on the training part and the recommended depth from the training agency.

True, yet many (at least pre-pandemic for me) still simply asked how many dives I'd done and when was the last one. If I were a dive op owner or DM, I think I would want to err on the side of safety but as a diver I'd probably be upset if they didn't take my word that I had "experience." I know a lot of dive ops have implemented the "check-out dive" as a first dive with them so they can check out a divers ability.

It also makes checkin faster. Folks with OW: boat one for the shallower dive; AOW: boat two for the bit deeper dive. No need for a dive experience interview with each new person.
When boats do this, these could be the reasons.
And boat two would be the advanced boat, full of, wait for it ..., advanced divers.:wink: (Because they are no longer the entry classification of autonomous diver.)

This would all make sense but not all dive ops work this way. I had to look back to find my last dives where 2 boats went out - Jan. 2017 in Grand Cayman with Ocean Frontiers. Although I had AOW, they kept my OW card in their computer system - I had previously dived with them in 2010. The 2010 dives were still within my first 30 dives. My wife was diving at the time and was still getting comfortable with diving so I went with her group while my buddy went with the "advanced" - lol - group. For 2 days that my wife dove, we still went to 75' and 103' on our first dives. 2017 was the same as far as depths although my wife didn't dive then. Don't know if I was on the "advanced" boat or the "other" boat but I know if they look me up, they have my OW card in their system. Again, I think a lot depends on what sites are available where one travels to as much as the the c-card.
 
The scenario, you mention is that you already dived with them recently. If you check in in the morning for a 30m wreck dive with a dive charter, I would not be surprised that they would ask you to do a check dive at your expense. I am with @scubadada on this; why bother? Pay the darn course and you will never ever have to deal with this :). You also spare the others as well. Try to empathize with the dive op, you will pull out an ICD* certification and put him on a difficult spot, they will want to believe you but they will be worried until they see what you are capable of

*I can dive[/QUOTE]

@Ucarkus. Many of my international dives are with dive ops that I have not used before. Also, I do not drop in on any dive op for any dives. If I would like to use a certain op, or do a specific dive that is advertised as an AOW dive, I always contact the dive op well in advance of my planned arrival, giving them the specifics of my personal profile, age, physical condition, medical dive clearance letter, dive history, copies of pertinent computer downloaded dive log pages if requested (never has been requested), bringing all dive gear, etc, and what types of dives I would like to do. Personally, a 30m dive to a wreck is not even on my checklist of dives that interest me. If a dive op wants me to do a checkout dive, and my stopover permits that (usually does not), I am happy to pay for a checkout dive. Any checkout dive would be fine with me, time permitting. However, no dive op has ever requested I do a checkout dive unless everyone does a checkout dive, e.g. a checkout dive before being allowed to dive the pass at Fakarava. Why don't I bother with getting an AOW card? Several reasons: First, I have been diving for 20 years, although with a long break between the two 10 year blocks. Second, I am 75 years old, and don't know how much longer I will be able to dive. Third, I have never been turned down for a dive profile that I wanted to do. At my age, I have no desire to do any deep dives to a wreck, or highly challenging dives, so I fully expect to be able to participate in the dives I want to do. Most important, I think the AOW course would be a waste of my time and money. I have dived with a lot of newly minted, low dive numbers AOW divers over the past 11 years, and frankly I am not impressed by what I see or what they know. Thanks to ScubaBoard, and its members' inputs, I know I have learned more about diving than I would get from the vast majority of AOW courses. For that education, I thank you all.
 
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