What really is an "Advanced Open Water" diver?

[Searcaigh]

It was added a few years ago.

I'll stop searching through it then

 

[rmorgan]

PADI is, of course,not an “association of dive instructors”—it is a billionish-dollar-company which, over the past decade, has been passed among venture-capital firms and other private interests. It’s not news that PADI has a conflict between making SCUBA seem fun (it is, until it’s not) and easy (it ain’t) and not-scary-at-all, while buying up the dive magazines, selling ad space to operators and equipment manufacturers, starting a “club,” offering travel agency, etc.—and encouraging DM (40 dives required) and Instructor (60-100 dives required) training, while profiting from every bit of it. It’s also not news that most dive ops take great care, or at least think they do—but what (especially new) divers look for is the big PADI sign (as do I, when looking at far-flung locations), and I think that at all levels, many divers mistake voluntary “certification” by a for-profit corporation for expertise. (compare “certification” by BSAC and other organizations around the world which are governmentally-recognized, and very much focused on safety.). It seems notable that of 124 worldwide recreational diver deaths reported by DAN for 2017, 65 were in the U.S and Canada.

My partner recently completed her PADI AOW, after about 225 dives. She was already a capable diver, but benefitted from the buoyancy and nav modules—areas where she was better than she believed, I think, but the studying was very helpful for her, and didn’t hurt me either. That said, the highly-reputable shop doing her AOW could not teach several specialties; she ended up doing Fish ID, ok, but still. Shortly after, I began following the horrible saga of the young woman who died an awful death during incomprehensibly-bad drysuit “training” in frigid waters—see the SB Diving Litigation forum. She had about one dive after her OW. Recommended, and difficult, reading. No “BWRAF” there!

Things can cascade so quickly . . . Here, the OP was badly underweighted, Nitrox was “trained” on air, the instructors apparently needed instruction . . . Some of these things could easily have had dire consequences (first up, an uncontrolled ascent on a 100’ dive?), and the EAN piece is just bizarre. When my wife did her OW dives (in a zero-viz quarry), the instructor’s octopus would.not.breathe.at.all. Had she not kept her wits, disaster could have resulted. Reports like Cosmo’s remind us that certified is not synonymous with well-trained. I hope aspiring instructors take his experiences to heart and mind.

 

[markmud]

As a PADI MSDT Instructor I teach PADI's AOW certification. This means that someone fresh out of OW class (4 open water dives) can do 5 more open water dives for a total of 9 open water dives and have a certification card that declares that they are an "Advanced Open Water" diver. I am sure that my fellow instructors will agree that this individual is not truly an advanced open water diver.

I am working on a presentation around this question so any opinions of what truly constitutes an Advanced Open Water diver will be appreciated! I have my own opinions of course but would love to hear from the ScubaBoard crowd.

Thanks for your input!

Hi JW59,

My response takes us beyond the current "cert card mill" paradigm. I believe words mean things and "Advanced Open Water Diver" should mean exactly what the words in the title mean. Also, a diver who attains the title "Advanced Open Water Diver" should in fact, be one.

Dive ops should treat true AOW divers with respect and greater leeway.

Here is my criteria:

An Advanced Open Water Diver (for recreational diving) should have:

1. 100 logged dives in various open ocean conditions (including large Bays, Lakes, and Sounds [Lake Superior and the Puget Sound, et allia, should be considered open ocean]); however, the experience must be varied. 100 dives at Gilboa Quarry or 100 dives at Rubicon Point is not sufficient. A well rounded catalog of dives, including cold water, must be represented in the log book which includes back-up documentation. Experience and/or training to 130 feet/40 meters must be included.
   1. Also, the diver must have some further training such as a technical certification combined with a solo certification. Or, a diver may substitute some other form of training similar to SSI's Science of Diving with a solo cert and a deep cert. A rescue cert should be considered high on the list of prerequisite training (I add rescue on a secondary list, because I don't think it should be a hard requirement; give people multiple paths to accreditation).
      1. SAC, redundant gas, and gas planning must be included. The ability to self rescue should be a prerequisite (solo type training).
2. A diver may complete only 50 dives in conjunction with a Master Scuba Diver program. But they must also complete a deep course and a solo, or tech, or SSI Science of diving course. Their 50 dives must be in the open ocean, or varied with bays, lakes, and sounds included. Their diving experiences must be well rounded.
3. A diver may obtain an Advanced Open Water Diver certification with 100 logged dives and a comprehensive GED type exam, and a review of their log book by an instructor. Documentation guidelines must be established for reviewing the log book.

An Advanced Open Water Diver should have the experience and/or training to fulfill the word-for-word meaning of the title.

The current AOW cert is a total joke.

cheers,
m

 

[tursiops]

"Advanced Open Water Diver" should mean exactly what the words in the title mean.

You are about half a century late in trying to redefine what AOW means. It has a clear and well-established meaning for those who teach it and those who provide the cert cards. The criteria you suggest have a lot of validity and are worth discussing, but not in the context of AOW. Make up a new name for your new set of certification criteria, otherwise you are just adding to the confusion and misinterpretation. You may as well be arguing that a tomato is mislabeled as a fruit because it doesn't fit your definition of a fruit.

 

[Scraps]

If you push a pawn forward in chess, it’s still a pawn and has a long way to go before it can become anything but a pawn. But it is an advanced pawn.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

No name changes are ever going to occur ever. The marketing machine has worked quite well. I have heard from a number of instructors who admit to certifying new divers as open water divers despite not meeting performance requirements, as the scuba diver rating (which they actually met the requirements) would make them feel bad.

One friend I made on here from Australia mentioned how his friend's business wouldn't survive if he required his customers to meet performance requirements.

So the question remains how has AOW improved? What is this thinking like a diver? What new dive planning has been added? Is there SAC/RMV determination? Swim speeds? Min gas? What?

 

[tursiops]

If you push a pawn forward in chess, it’s still a pawn and has a long way to go before it can become anything but a pawn. But it is an advanced pawn.

Nice analogy, mate.

 

[scubadada]

Continuing scuba education is a difficult topic. Having something like 100 applicable dives for AOW would interfere dramatically with other certs. It appears that Rescue does not have a minimum of dives but requires Adventurer (3 of 5) AOW dives. So you could probably get Rescue after as few as 7 dives, frightening.

The requirement for 100 dives before solo seems reasonable. Of course, it only requires 40 dives to start along the divemaster track!

 

[MichaelMc]

The requirement for 100 dives before solo seems reasonable. Of course, it only requires 40 dives to start along the divemaster track!

To dive by yourself you need 100 dives.
To train to dive in charge of other's safety and your own, you need 40.
Yeah.

Not that dive count is what will graduate you from DM training or solo, but still.

 

[boulderjohn]

So you could probably get Rescue after as few as 7 dives, frightening.

Well, in theory you could begin the rescue class after 7 dives.

So why is the fact that people can receive training on how to rescue a troubled diver with so few dives frightening? A lot of people argue that it should be part of initial OW training.