What really is an "Advanced Open Water" diver?

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I'm not an instructor (with 0-24 dives, you don't say?), but I did just take AOW and Nitrox last month. My perspective as a new diver and someone who just took AOW might help, or might not. This might just be a Cosmicist journal entry to the internet. Anyways, my AOW experience was terrible, and this is my opinion from outside the industry looking in:

1. As most everyone here has detailed, diving courses are instructor-dependent, both in the sense of upholding standards and in truly passing along useful knowledge to students. Instructor quality is top priority, so I'm putting it first here. For AOW, I really think it's all on the instructor because the course material is anemic. Unfortunately, I have high standards for instructors. My OW and AOW instructors tied their own noose when it comes to repeat business. I will preface everything else with that... The instructors I know did not teach my AOW/Nitrox well. This does not mean the course is bad (although it is), but for the instructors on here, this is my perspective of what makes a course bad because of bad instructors. Allow me to list it all:
  • they were stressed and disorganized
  • clearly disagreeing on something personal (married couple)
  • didn't pay attention to their little daughter
  • I did Nitrox cert simultaneously, and never breathed a single breath of Nitrox the whole weekend. No, it's not required, but it showed me they do the bare minimum. They didn't even review the material with me. I had to remind them 4 times to analyze a tank with me. Oh yes, a tank of AIR. After the final dive and they were packing up. Can't throw in an actual tank of Nitrox for anything? Come on.
  • I was severely under-weighted during one of the dives, to the point where I was swimming 180 degrees down, fins toward the surface, trying to stay down during a safety stop. My instructor didn't bother helping me during the dive, and I had to nag her for more weight afterwards. And yes, I made quite sure that the floaty BCD was completely void of air. I bought a full set of gear after the class - none of it from them.
  • I learned more from the former and current commercial divers that were "DM"s (air quotes) helping along the way. In fact, my main instructor abdicated responsibility for teaching me search and recovery methods to one of these commercial divers. He's not a qualified DM, but was a combat arms vet like me and had his ___ together. I'd rather dive with him than those (former) instructors of mine.
  • They were also teaching a small OW group. I remembered everything from my class, and noticed that they didn't bother teaching them to stay off the bottom, or even to stay horizontal. The other commercial diver was training to be a DM, and the instructor let him teach all of the rescue and emergency portions of the OW class. He sat 100m away in the shade, completely away from it all.
  • That's enough complaints. Yes, there was more.
2. The AOW course is useless. There's a popular Youtube channel called Divers Ready, and in one video the guy talks about specialty courses and how useful they are. One of the criteria for he uses for usefulness/importance is whether you can learn the material outside of a course. Well, all the material within AOW could have been taught to me in a single afternoon by one of you on here without a course. To use SB-speak, The AOW course itself is a monetary solution to a business problem, instead of a training solution to a skills problem. I understand that the scuba industry is somehow shrinking (which I find surprising), and agencies have found $$$ in offering courses for nearly everything. I'm waiting for specialty courses to pop up for "Scuba Gear Cleaning", to be paired in a package with "Boat Diver". :rolleyes: After taking the NAUI online AOW course, I found it was 50% review, 35% fluff, and 15% helpful information. Honestly, AOW should be the ending portion of OW. No OW1 and OW2, just OW period. As an OW diver, I was qualified to plan and execute dives with my buddy in similar conditions, right? If any agency really expects that to be the case in real life, they need to expand OW diver training standards. Training agencies have to deal with the lowest common denominator; it's just a fact. In my opinion, the standards are way too low. Have the student spend an extra hour reading about types of diving in the online class and request to try those dives. Or simply offer a few from the list as a standard. Would it make OW class a day longer? Maybe. Is that bad? No. Everything else can pretty much be covered in normal OW class.

3. As mentioned on here, the name Advanced Open Water is a misnomer. It should be named Advancing Open Water Skills, or "Introduction to Specialty Courses", "Specialty Course Taste-Tester", "Where Do You Want To Spend Your Money Next?", or "The Cosmicist has to take this course because the boat won't let him on otherwise". You barely go from learning how to put on your fins to putting them on the correct feet. It does little to educate new divers like me. Taking AOW right after OW? Nothing advanced about that. Either raise the standards for OW and get rid of AOW, or raise the standards for AOW to actually make it advanced. Here's an idea for agencies looking for revenue. Make it similar to GUE Fundamentals! That'll make it "advanced" for most people, legitimately useful, and competitive in the market.

TL,DR: My AOW experience did little to advance my knowledge and skills much at all. I'm a big boy, though, so I compartmentalize my experience from the course and agency. I simply won't dive with those people again. Ever. Good thing I'm an autonomous person and had already taught myself past the course material. Oh, speaking of the AOW course itself, it's useless.
 
I'm not an instructor (with 0-24 dives, you don't say?), but I did just take AOW and Nitrox last month. My perspective as a new diver and someone who just took AOW might help, or might not. This might just be a Cosmicist journal entry to the internet. Anyways, my AOW experience was terrible, and this is my opinion from outside the industry looking in:

1. As most everyone here has detailed, diving courses are instructor-dependent, both in the sense of upholding standards and in truly passing along useful knowledge to students. Instructor quality is top priority, so I'm putting it first here. For AOW, I really think it's all on the instructor because the course material is anemic. Unfortunately, I have high standards for instructors. My OW and AOW instructors tied their own noose when it comes to repeat business. I will preface everything else with that... The instructors I know did not teach my AOW/Nitrox well. This does not mean the course is bad (although it is), but for the instructors on here, this is my perspective of what makes a course bad because of bad instructors. Allow me to list it all:
  • they were stressed and disorganized
  • clearly disagreeing on something personal (married couple)
  • didn't pay attention to their little daughter
  • I did Nitrox cert simultaneously, and never breathed a single breath of Nitrox the whole weekend. No, it's not required, but it showed me they do the bare minimum. They didn't even review the material with me. I had to remind them 4 times to analyze a tank with me. Oh yes, a tank of AIR. After the final dive and they were packing up. Can't throw in an actual tank of Nitrox for anything? Come on.
  • I was severely under-weighted during one of the dives, to the point where I was swimming 180 degrees down, fins toward the surface, trying to stay down during a safety stop. My instructor didn't bother helping me during the dive, and I had to nag her for more weight afterwards. And yes, I made quite sure that the floaty BCD was completely void of air. I bought a full set of gear after the class - none of it from them.
  • I learned more from the former and current commercial divers that were "DM"s (air quotes) helping along the way. In fact, my main instructor abdicated responsibility for teaching me search and recovery methods to one of these commercial divers. He's not a qualified DM, but was a combat arms vet like me and had his ___ together. I'd rather dive with him than those (former) instructors of mine.
  • They were also teaching a small OW group. I remembered everything from my class, and noticed that they didn't bother teaching them to stay off the bottom, or even to stay horizontal. The other commercial diver was training to be a DM, and the instructor let him teach all of the rescue and emergency portions of the OW class. He sat 100m away in the shade, completely away from it all.
  • That's enough complaints. Yes, there was more.
2. The AOW course is useless. There's a popular Youtube channel called Divers Ready, and in one video the guy talks about specialty courses and how useful they are. One of the criteria for he uses for usefulness/importance is whether you can learn the material outside of a course. Well, all the material within AOW could have been taught to me in a single afternoon by one of you on here without a course. To use SB-speak, The AOW course itself is a monetary solution to a business problem, instead of a training solution to a skills problem. I understand that the scuba industry is somehow shrinking (which I find surprising), and agencies have found $$$ in offering courses for nearly everything. I'm waiting for specialty courses to pop up for "Scuba Gear Cleaning", to be paired in a package with "Boat Diver". :rolleyes: After taking the NAUI online AOW course, I found it was 50% review, 35% fluff, and 15% helpful information. Honestly, AOW should be the ending portion of OW. No OW1 and OW2, just OW period. As an OW diver, I was qualified to plan and execute dives with my buddy in similar conditions, right? If any agency really expects that to be the case in real life, they need to expand OW diver training standards. Training agencies have to deal with the lowest common denominator; it's just a fact. In my opinion, the standards are way too low. Have the student spend an extra hour reading about types of diving in the online class and request to try those dives. Or simply offer a few from the list as a standard. Would it make OW class a day longer? Maybe. Is that bad? No. Everything else can pretty much be covered in normal OW class.

3. As mentioned on here, the name Advanced Open Water is a misnomer. It should be named Advancing Open Water Skills, or "Introduction to Specialty Courses", "Specialty Course Taste-Tester", "Where Do You Want To Spend Your Money Next?", or "The Cosmicist has to take this course because the boat won't let him on otherwise". You barely go from learning how to put on your fins to putting them on the correct feet. It does little to educate new divers like me. Taking AOW right after OW? Nothing advanced about that. Either raise the standards for OW and get rid of AOW, or raise the standards for AOW to actually make it advanced. Here's an idea for agencies looking for revenue. Make it similar to GUE Fundamentals! That'll make it "advanced" for most people, legitimately useful, and competitive in the market.

TL,DR: My AOW experience did little to advance my knowledge and skills much at all. I'm a big boy, though, so I compartmentalize my experience from the course and agency. I simply won't dive with those people again. Ever. Good thing I'm an autonomous person and had already taught myself past the course material. Oh, speaking of the AOW course itself, it's useless.
I'm sorry you had such crappy experiences with such crappy instructors.
I'm also sorry you feel you are now qualified to judge and denigrate the entire process and content, globally.
 
3. As mentioned on here, the name Advanced Open Water is a misnomer. It should be named Advancing Open Water Skills, or "Introduction to Specialty Courses", "Specialty Course Taste-Tester", "Where Do You Want To Spend Your Money Next?", or "The Cosmicist has to take this course because the boat won't let him on otherwise". You barely go from learning how to put on your fins to putting them on the correct feet. It does little to educate new divers like me. Taking AOW right after OW? Nothing advanced about that. Either raise the standards for OW and get rid of AOW, or raise the standards for AOW to actually make it advanced. Here's an idea for agencies looking for revenue. Make it similar to GUE Fundamentals! That'll make it "advanced" for most people, legitimately useful, and competitive in the market.

TL,DR: My AOW experience did little to advance my knowledge and skills much at all. I'm a big boy, though, so I compartmentalize my experience from the course and agency. I simply won't dive with those people again. Ever. Good thing I'm an autonomous person and had already taught myself past the course material. Oh, speaking of the AOW course itself, it's useless.
Bravo!

Nothing like a good rant that's topical, coherent, and even funny.
 
That's the disconnect to me. PADI claims that OW produces fully capable recreational divers and AOW is just a sampler. But many of their own affiliated ops, even the vaunted "5 Star" resorts, treat OW and AOW divers as different animals.
Why should they accept OW to do any dive when there is an income stream; AOW.

But then what do I know having gone through Snorkel Diver, Third Class Diver, Dive Leader to Advanced Diver.
 
Other than a name, what does it accomplish to have it ow1 and ow2 vs what it is now? It seems people are just hung up on the fact it says advanced. It is advanced over ow, as you have experience in other environments that your ow did do (at least deep, but usually others as well). It is not saying you are an expert, just that you have advanced past open water.
Different words, but exactly what I said. Again, getting back to how you define the word advanced, or "mastered the skill" as mentioned in a recent post.
Yes, some just can't accept advanced as just being a title or word. Again, for those who think it really means you're a real expert diver and therefore take unwarranted risks, well, I just don't think about those folks.
 
After I got my OW I went back to the shop and told them that I couldn't believe that they just released me to go dive by myself (with a buddy). I was told that the boat would ask for my log book and if I didn't have enough dives they would require I hire a DM. I was also told I had to get in 10 more dives before I could take the advanced OW.

I don't think advanced is much better than OW, there is still SO much to learn and experience. When I went for my first dive away from the shop that I learned from, it was my first ocean dive, I wasn't asked about my log book, it was a walk in dive with my son and it was my first Rip Tide experience. So now, advanced isn't much if you have't had a lot of dives in.

Fortunately for me, I told the shop I wanted to learn a lot before I went out there in the deep blue, so I had a lot of c cards piled up and felt very good, after all that I felt like an advanced diver.
 
I'm not an instructor (with 0-24 dives, you don't say?), but I did just take AOW and Nitrox last month. My perspective as a new diver and someone who just took AOW might help, or might not. This might just be a Cosmicist journal entry to the internet. Anyways, my AOW experience was terrible, and this is my opinion from outside the industry looking in:
Yeah. It definitely sounds like you had a bad set of instructors. Unfortunately, they are out there. All you can really do is provide feedback to the agency, and recommend others when the time comes.

3. As mentioned on here, the name Advanced Open Water is a misnomer. It should be named Advancing Open Water Skills, or "Introduction to Specialty Courses", "Specialty Course Taste-Tester", "Where Do You Want To Spend Your Money Next?", or "The Cosmicist has to take this course because the boat won't let him on otherwise". You barely go from learning how to put on your fins to putting them on the correct feet. It does little to educate new divers like me. Taking AOW right after OW? Nothing advanced about that. Either raise the standards for OW and get rid of AOW, or raise the standards for AOW to actually make it advanced. Here's an idea for agencies looking for revenue. Make it similar to GUE Fundamentals! That'll make it "advanced" for most people, legitimately useful, and competitive in the market.
This, on the other hand, is an agency issue. I’m guessing PADI, but some others do this as well. I really don’t get the PADI AOW course. It is exactly like you describe above, an introduction to specialties. You might learn a little, but you definitely aren’t taking the full specialties.

Not all agencies do it that way. I got my AOW through SSI. There is no SSI AOW course. Instead, you get the AOW card after completion of 4 specialties. These are full specialties. I had previously done EAN many years ago, and added Deep, Night/Limited vis, and Navigation as specialties 2-4. EAN was done without any dives, but we definitely did tank analysis as part of it.

As I mentioned, I’m not really a fan of the PADI AOW course. I guess it comes down to what the diver wants it for. If the goal is to be able to get a card that says Advanced (for dive op requirements, or bragging rights), then maybe this makes sense. If the goal is to actually learn something, then the diver would be better served by taking the actual specialty that they want to learn.

As I mentioned, my 2nd OW course was a bit more thorough than most OW courses. So, my Deep course wasn’t really anything new from OW. Dives were slightly deeper, but nothing really new for me. EAN was new. Nav was also useful. I probably could have learned this on my own, but it wasn’t a complete waste. Night/Limited vis wasn’t really new, but it was useful. Helpful to have an experienced instructor along on that first dark dive.
 
I rather liked my AOW course. My OW was done with all shore diving while AOW was all off a boat, so a completely different experience. Of course we did nav, deep, and PPB, but because of the nature of the dives, each one could have counted as a different adventure dive category. I could have gotten boat, I could have gotten wreck, I could have gotten flora and fauna ID, I actually forgot what I ended up choosing to fulfill card requisites. What I did get effectively was multiple tries at diving off a boat to relatively deep wrecks or to open reefs where I would have to find my way back to the mooring site with the backup guidance of an instructor who was my buddy (solo class). I had the chance to really monitor my NDL (OW dives limited by air), do deep Pyle stops (which I’ve stopped doing), and analyze my tanks, label them with the proper MOD, and sign the log taking responsibility for the analysis (yes I also did nitrox).
 
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