What really is an "Advanced Open Water" diver?

[lowwall]

You are confusing trained with certified. In theory, an ow duvet from any agency can technically go to 300', but shouldn't be doing that. Same thing applies. Can you go to 100' on your first dive after ow- yes, but I would suggest you shouldn't without either more training, or learning.

No I'm not. There is no distinction made between training and certified in the WRSTC standard for OW diver. Diving to "limits of training and experience" is included in the Supervised Diver standard.

And you can't technically go to 300' without violating your certification limits. OW certification is to the recreational limit which is elsewhere defined as 130'/40m.

FWIW, I went deeper than 100' on the first dive of every day off the week following my OW certification. The DM was my instructor, so presumably he thought it was OK.

 

[TonRin]

I completed my OW training in Feb this year. After the mandatory certification and completion of the course dives, our first dive was done the next day at a place called Mirror Pond here in the Solomon Islands. There were 3 of us that had completed the OW certification and 5 other divers who were already certified. Mirror Pond has a large overhang in the water that divers must swim under to breach the pond and our instructor was adamant that we not attempt it even though we were certified. We stayed outside and waited for the rest to swim on and then come back out. We understood the possibility for danger for us. We only had 5 dives under our belt all under instruction. We still had a great dive.

We completed our AOW in June and the only reason we really did it was a lot of the WW2 wrecks here in the Solomon's are between 15m & 35m deep, so we would miss a lot out being only OW certified to 18m. Having said that, my dive buddy and I are quite happy to hang around the 18m and up mark during dives if there's no reason to descend further as we get longer dives as we suck the air faster than most.

I will say though that I do agree with a lot of you guys in that there should be better training during AOW for emergency issues that may arise. Even some sort of refresher maybe. Sure, during my OW I took my mask off at 15m and had it off for a minute and put it back on and cleared it. Great. I have a good mask and it never leaks so for 20 dives since I did that I have not even had to clear my mask let alone remove it. Would I panic if it got ripped off, who knows... Probably... Have I run out of air at 18m... No. Would I panic.. Hell yes! Do I know what to do if it happens.. Yes. Can I put that into action.. I hope so. Nothing is guaranteed.

My buddy signaled to me on one of our AOW training dives that he was having an issue. He was about 8m in front of me. We were at about 25m at the time and visibility was endless (a perk of the diving here). After he signaled to me he quickly turned and started to swim up and away. He ascended about 10 to 12m very quickly. I couldn't catch him. He was having a panic attack. Luckily he stopped at about 13m and turned to look at me. I caught up and held onto him. He was breathing very fast and heavy (like hyperventilating), so I just got him to calm down and breath steady. After a minute or so, he was fine and calm again. We were about 20mins into the dive so I signaled to the Dive master (who was watching us) that we would end the dive and head up. All was OK. We got onto the tender and whilst we had a laugh about it, it could have been a lot more serious. I did give him a serve about it though and said don't ever do that **** again!

All the AOW gave us was the ability to go to 30m, have a night dive experience, learn how to navigate with a compass and we learnt a lot about coral and fish which was great as we have a lot to see here. My DAN insurance dictates to me that I am not covered for any dives below 30m so that's what we stick to.

I don't believe you should be able to do your AOW straight after you OW. You have like 20 dives before be able to do it. Basic skills learnt in OW should have to be shown on the first dive of AOW before proceeding to the next section. Remove and replace your mask, buddy assisted ascent, some sort of entanglement scenario maybe. Then sure, you should be able to go deeper and learn more. I know we have OW trained people here in the Solomon's that regularly dive to 30m+ without AOW certification because they have 50+dives and know what to do. They are only hurting themselves if they have issues... And their hip pockets!

Sorry for the rant. I'm not a stupid risk taker. I don't want to put myself in any position I can't get out of. I believe i'm a smart diver and know my limits and my buddy is the most important asset to my diving experience.

Cheers
Tony

 

[scubadada]

I completed my OW training in Feb this year. After the mandatory certification and completion of the course dives, our first dive was done the next day at a place called Mirror Pond here in the Solomon Islands. There were 3 of us that had completed the OW certification and 5 other divers who were already certified. Mirror Pond has a large overhang in the water that divers must swim under to breach the pond and our instructor was adamant that we not attempt it even though we were certified. We stayed outside and waited for the rest to swim on and then come back out. We understood the possibility for danger for us. We only had 5 dives under our belt all under instruction. We still had a great dive.

We completed our AOW in June and the only reason we really did it was a lot of the WW2 wrecks here in the Solomon's are between 15m & 35m deep, so we would miss a lot out being only OW certified to 18m. Having said that, my dive buddy and I are quite happy to hang around the 18m and up mark during dives if there's no reason to descend further as we get longer dives as we suck the air faster than most.

I will say though that I do agree with a lot of you guys in that there should be better training during AOW for emergency issues that may arise. Even some sort of refresher maybe. Sure, during my OW I took my mask off at 15m and had it off for a minute and put it back on and cleared it. Great. I have a good mask and it never leaks so for 20 dives since I did that I have not even had to clear my mask let alone remove it. Would I panic if it got ripped off, who knows... Probably... Have I run out of air at 18m... No. Would I panic.. Hell yes! Do I know what to do if it happens.. Yes. Can I put that into action.. I hope so. Nothing is guaranteed.

My buddy signaled to me on one of our AOW training dives that he was having an issue. He was about 8m in front of me. We were at about 25m at the time and visibility was endless (a perk of the diving here). After he signaled to me he quickly turned and started to swim up and away. He ascended about 10 to 12m very quickly. I couldn't catch him. He was having a panic attack. Luckily he stopped at about 13m and turned to look at me. I caught up and held onto him. He was breathing very fast and heavy (like hyperventilating), so I just got him to calm down and breath steady. After a minute or so, he was fine and calm again. We were about 20mins into the dive so I signaled to the Dive master (who was watching us) that we would end the dive and head up. All was OK. We got onto the tender and whilst we had a laugh about it, it could have been a lot more serious. I did give him a serve about it though and said don't ever do that **** again!

All the AOW gave us was the ability to go to 30m, have a night dive experience, learn how to navigate with a compass and we learnt a lot about coral and fish which was great as we have a lot to see here. My DAN insurance dictates to me that I am not covered for any dives below 30m so that's what we stick to.

I don't believe you should be able to do your AOW straight after you OW. You have like 20 dives before be able to do it. Basic skills learnt in OW should have to be shown on the first dive of AOW before proceeding to the next section. Remove and replace your mask, buddy assisted ascent, some sort of entanglement scenario maybe. Then sure, you should be able to go deeper and learn more. I know we have OW trained people here in the Solomon's that regularly dive to 30m+ without AOW certification because they have 50+dives and know what to do. They are only hurting themselves if they have issues... And their hip pockets!

Sorry for the rant. I'm not a stupid risk taker. I don't want to put myself in any position I can't get out of. I believe i'm a smart diver and know my limits and my buddy is the most important asset to my diving experience.

Cheers
Tony

I'm with you, I don't think that doing 9 dives from OW should give you AOW. A minimum number of dives would be quire reasonable. What's the right number of dives, I don't know, perhaps 20-25.

 

[Rukkian]

No I'm not. There is no distinction made between training and certified in the WRSTC standard for OW diver. Diving to "limits of training and experience" is included in the Supervised Diver standard.

And you can't technically go to 300' without violating your certification limits. OW certification is to the recreational limit which is elsewhere defined as 130'/40m.

FWIW, I went deeper than 100' on the first dive of every day off the week following my OW certification. The DM was my instructor, so presumably he thought it was OK.

You were with a dm, who was also an instructor. That is completely different than doing that in your own in your first dive. Like I said, you can go deeper, it is just not recommended.

I guess we will just agree to disagree.

 

[TonRin]

Also a shame that his DM/ Instructor is not covering his medical bills if something went wrong below 18m which is all he is certified for. Sure the DM/Instructor thinks you will be OK, but DAN Insurance might think otherwise when your trying to make a claim and your computer records shows you were at 35m as an OW certified diver..

Its crazy and very unprofessional of the DM/Instructor.. Whats his name so I know never to dive with him?

 

[lowwall]

Also a shame that his DM/ Instructor is not covering his medical bills if something went wrong below 18m which is all he is certified for. Sure the DM/Instructor thinks you will be OK, but DAN Insurance might think otherwise when your trying to make a claim and your computer records shows you were at 35m as an OW certified diver..

Its crazy and very unprofessional of the DM/Instructor.. Whats his name so I know never to dive with him?

My DAN insurance at the time did not have a depth limit. Only the cheapest plan had a limit. The limit was 40m, not 18.

What I am getting from a few of these replies is that PADI has actually managed to brainwash people into thinking that 18 meters is some sort of legal or certification limit for OW, but not AOW, certified divers.

So rather than train people to the actual standard, they have resorted to training people that the standard doesn't say what it says.

On a related note, when did they start pretending the rec limit is 30m instead of 40m?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Its crazy and very unprofessional of the DM/Instructor.. Whats his name so I know never to dive with him?

Its because full time dive pros are working for tips. Push the boundaries for the customers to give them a thrill, get a better tip.

Next DM/instructor you come across, please ask them how much they gross and net per month.

 

[lowwall]

Or just maybe he had evaluated my abilities and decided I was good enough to do the dives he was leading? I will note that these were ideal conditions off Cayman Brach.

Also this was 20 years ago. I had 4x 2 hour pool sessions in my OW course. I also was a former collegiate water polo player, lifeguard, body surfer and snorkeler. The scuba skills came very easily to me (except fin pivots, for some reason my whole body insisted on going up and down together). After the first pool session, as soon as I'd completed a skill, the instructor let me get off my knees and swim around practicing the skills and working on my buoyancy while the rest of the class kneeled on the bottom and waited for their turns.

My point isn't that everyone is ready for 40m dives, or unguided dives, when they complete their OW course. It's that everyone should have the skills and the knowledge to safely work their way to that point without additional formal training. That's the literal WRSTC standard for Open Water certification. Here it is again, "A certified open water diver is qualified to apply the knowledge and skills outlined in this standard to plan, conduct, and log open-water, no-required decompression dives when properly equipped, and accompanied by another certified diver." If PADI or any other agency tells you otherwise, then they are violating that standard.

 

[Diving Dubai]

PADI has actually managed to brainwash people into thinking that 18 meters is some sort of legal or certification limit for OW, but not AOW, certified divers

No they haven't

It's people on the internet spouting nonsense

The depth limits, which have been explained many many other times by others simply applies to students under training. The certification agencies have no control what you do after that. You do sign a disclaimer on completion of training that you understand that if you want to dive outside the scope of yoru training then you should seek further training.

The "Rec Limit of 40m" is a US invented mindset which has morphed into a convention. BSAC & CMAS base their rec limit (with appropriate depth training of PPO2 1.4 using 21%

Some dive insurance companies have put artificial limitations on their policy, I once witnessed a DM fall foul of this when he got a DCS from a 22m dive, but ended up with a chamber bill of $30,000 because the small print of his cheapo insurance had a limit of 18m

Some dive centre make up their own rules and then claim it's a PADI/SSI etc rule so that customers don't get upset at them

 

[scubaozy]

ISO 24801-2 defines a recommended maximum depth limit of 20m for an Autonomous Diver. Additionally
If diving conditions are significantly different from those previously experienced, a scuba diver at level
2 requires an appropriate orientation from a dive leader (also quote from ISO).

There is no international standard for aowd, nor, depth limits.

Next level after autonomous is dive leader -> ISO 24801-3. It actually encourages diving deeper than 30m, below is direct quote:
"If the local environment does not include any such factors, the candidate’s diving experience should be
broadened by completing a greater number of dives and/or including dives of greater depth (e.g. more
than 30 m)"

First you need to obey rules/legislation of the country, if such is defined, often local federations define this and they may or may not comply directly with ISO.
Second, you need to obey house rules. Often, aowd certification requirement falls under this , i.e. it is a requirement set by your host dive operator. They might have all kind of reasons to do this including pushing an extra course sale. But honestly, looking at the price of aowd courses are offered (5 dives) and how much a single dive is offered for, there is not a lot of incentive to push it. Sometimes not many students sign up for aowd, so there is an opportunity cost of teaching aowd as you can sell them normal dive and use the instructor to teach a bigger owd class or more expensive rescue course.
I worked for an operator where guests signed house rules when checking in that included voluntary 30m depth limit even the country limit was 40m. Logic was, if you set the limit to 30, they will go down to 40. If you set it 40 they would go down to 50. So, aim of the operator was actually try to be compliant with regulations at all times.
They need to draw a line somewhere as hosts and define these house rules.

Whenever I could, I sent back the aowd candidates to get more diving experience (I think 25 dives is a sweet spot) before starting the course. There are however quite a few divers who are ready for it straight after owd.
Just like any other course, if you are overqualified or underqualified when you start, you will be unhappy with it.