What really is an "Advanced Open Water" diver?

[Rukkian]

Very good point, as I was about to weigh in on rescue skills in OW. There has already been comments like the AOW stuff should be taught as part of OW, and maybe go back to the OW1 & OW2 titles of long before I was certified.
In the end I think it gets back to what kind of diving you regularly do. That is why I think the AOW course should contain those dives/material that relates to safety and generally good diving.
Your point back there about divers needing to be guided sort of backs me up on this. To me it's all about basics, safety, etc., not dives like Fish Naturalist, underwater photography, and a host of others being included in the 5 AOW dives.

Other than a name, what does it accomplish to have it ow1 and ow2 vs what it is now? It seems people are just hung up on the fact it says advanced. It is advanced over ow, as you have experience in other environments that your ow did do (at least deep, but usually others as well). It is not saying you are an expert, just that you have advanced past open water.

 

[Outbound]

I didn't read through all the posts, so apologies if I'm repeating what others have said. I don't really have a problem with the way AOW certs run. My much bigger issue is with OWD. I think it should be much more rigorous. I think each of the skills should be demonstrated multiple times, not just once in confined water and then again in open water. Lots of people have trouble with full mask clear and mask removal and replace. That should be done again and again and again. OOA skills should be done repeatedly. CESA should be done repeatedly, despite being a bit problematic. Most important, most - if not all - of the rescue diver instruction should be baked into OWD. As many people will attest, rescue diver is perhaps the most challenging but satisfying certification/training program, at least as far as rec agencies go. After going through rescue class, my first thought was "Holy crap, I can't believe that, immediately after OWD, I was certified to go diving with another OWD diver on our own and not know this stuff!"

Of course, if OWD involved rescue diver training as well, it would scare many people off. But perhaps that's okay. Maybe the current OWD course should be downgraded to what Scuba Diver is now, and a OWD+Rescue course should become the standard OWD cert. That way, the vacation divers who just want to do a couple of easy warm water dives with a DM a few times a year can still have fun, but the more serious OWD divers can have life-saving training right from the start. Just a thought.

So, in conclusion, AOW could definitely be beefed up a bit, but I think the real issue is that it follows inadequate OWD training without addressing those inadequacies.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I didn't read through all the posts, so apologies if I'm repeating what others have said. I don't really have a problem with the way AOW certs run. My much bigger issue is with OWD. I think it should be much more rigorous. I think each of the skills should be demonstrated multiple times, not just once in confined water and then again in open water. Lots of people have trouble with full mask clear and mask removal and replace. That should be done again and again and again. OOA skills should be done repeatedly. CESA should be done repeatedly, despite being a bit problematic. Most important, many - if not all - of the rescue diver instruction should be baked into OWD. As many people will attest, rescue diver is perhaps the most challenging but satisfying certification/training program, at least as far as rec agencies go. After going through rescue class, my first thought was "Holy crap, I can't believe that, immediately after OWD, I was certified to go diving with another OWD diver on our own and not know this stuff!"

Of course, if OWD involved rescue diver training as well, it would scare many people off. But perhaps that's okay. Maybe the current OWD course should be downgraded to what Scuba Diver is now, and a OWD+Rescue course should become the standard OWD cert. That way, the vacation divers who just want to do a couple of easy warm water dives with a DM a few times a year can still have fun, but the more serious OWD divers can have life-saving training right from the start. Just a thought.

So, in conclusion, AOW could definitely be beefed up a bit, but I think the real issue is that it follows inadequate OWD training.

Rescue skills of a panicked diver at the surface, non-responsive from depth, surface tow while stripping gear are still in SEI, PDIC, and NAUI Basic OW training. I also added supporting a diver at the surface for two minutes and helping them achieve and maintain positive buoyancy.

 

[Rukkian]

I didn't read through all the posts, so apologies if I'm repeating what others have said. I don't really have a problem with the way AOW certs run. My much bigger issue is with OWD. I think it should be much more rigorous. I think each of the skills should be demonstrated multiple times, not just once in confined water and then again in open water. Lots of people have trouble with full mask clear and mask removal and replace. That should be done again and again and again. OOA skills should be done repeatedly. CESA should be done repeatedly, despite being a bit problematic. Most important, many - if not all - of the rescue diver instruction should be baked into OWD. As many people will attest, rescue diver is perhaps the most challenging but satisfying certification/training program, at least as far as rec agencies go. After going through rescue class, my first thought was "Holy crap, I can't believe that, immediately after OWD, I was certified to go diving with another OWD diver on our own and not know this stuff!"

Of course, if OWD involved rescue diver training as well, it would scare many people off. But perhaps that's okay. Maybe the current OWD course should be downgraded to what Scuba Diver is now, and a OWD+Rescue course should become the standard OWD cert. That way, the vacation divers who just want to do a couple of easy warm water dives with a DM a few times a year can still have fun, but the more serious OWD divers can have life-saving training right from the start. Just a thought.

So, in conclusion, AOW could definitely be beefed up a bit, but I think the real issue is that it follows inadequate OWD training without addressing those inadequacies.

Having just finished my rescue last week, I will say that most of what was there could not possibly be absorbed in ow, unless you made the ow course like 15 dives. imo, ow is meant as your driver's license, it lets you start to learn while doing and getting experience. I needed experience in different situations to be confident and be ready to deal with an actual emergency. The parts of the class drilling home that the most important thing is that you stay safe before attempting to rescue somebody else is critical, and no fresh ow diver is ready for that. Trying to cram all of that into ow would just make scuba diving go away faster, since the only people actually getting ow would have to be really committed and willing to spend 1000's of dollars up front.

imo, while standards could be a bit higher for mastery in ow, adding in too much will just turn people off. Get people in with a taste, make sure they know that while they are certified, they should seek out dm lead dives, or find experienced people to dive with to get some experience before ever trying to rescue somebody else.

 

[seeker242]

It means someone who has advanced open water c-card. Beyond that, it can mean whatever you want it to mean, which is by definition, not a definition to begin with.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

OWD is introvert, you will focus on your self for learning motor skills, aowd is mostly extrovert (excluding obligatory dives), this is the point you start undertaking activities beside core skills.

While we've bickered in the past, I'm asking the following sincerely. I'm not grasping this "extrovert" concept for AOW. I would think that would apply more for a rescue course where you then focus on helping others (though there are buddy skills in OW that fall under the extrovert category). There are no skills in deep (comparing depth gauges, seeing colors change are not skills). There is some skills learned in the navigation adventure dive. For the other 3 adventure dives, it all depends on which ones are chosen.

I'm not looking to bicker here but have a dialogue.

 

[tursiops]

When I certified through PADI the instructor actually said I was now qualified to dive with a buddy from class without any supervision and I was. Depending on the site and conditions. Inland freshwater lake with 10-25 ft vis at 3500 ft of altitude. He still pushed me to get AOW shortly after and I did. I didn't know at the time that some of the stuff in my AOW class should have been taught in OW.
I found that out when I crossed over to the YMCA and NAUI at the DM level and helped with a YMCA class. Completely different animal and standards.
As an SDI Instructor now, I still teach the same class I did as a YMCA instructor because standards not only allow it but encourage us to add to the course.
So I still do a full session on watermanship before putting them on SCUBA that involves snorkeling and free diving skills. We still cover tables and emergency deco procedures using the Navy Tables, and rescue skills in the class. Minimum of 6 pool sessions with 8 being the norm.
AOW the way I teach it, has minimum entry and exit requirements and is not a sample of "advanced" dives. It introduces all new skills and knowledge.
I wrote my own course and stayed within the standards while at the same time going way beyond them in what has been traditionally presented.
I put my entire philosophy and class in my second book and along with the required agency text, use it as the student manual.

Too bad you also call it AOW.....just adds confusion.

 

[DAJ]

JMHO, the last thing we need right now in a declining market population is more regulations. The standards have been set and it should be up to the individual agencies and instructors to emphasize what these certifications indicate and advise students how these certs should be viewed. People are going to do whatever they want after they leave the class so why worry about situations you have no control over. You could make a similar argument and question how an agency could certify a 10 year old to be an equipment specialist or a 12 year old to be drift or night diver certified. As standards have "evolved" over several decades, it falls on the current instructors to not just teach the minimum to get them out the door.

It is already difficult enough to figure out what was taught depending upon certification as the class curriculums have changed over the years and things that were commonly taught several years ago are no longer applicable with the same cert today. As an example, my OW cert never discussed a limit to 60 feet. We dove Table 1 of the Navy Dive Table and as long as we stayed within NDL, have at it. Our ascent rate was always follow the smallest bubble to the surface (60' per minute) not the more common 33' per minute that is seen today. If you change it up too much, who decides what AOW certs are acceptable and what agencies are questionable (not as good) as others. While every certifying agency views their curriculum as the standard for diver education, there needs to remain some commonality between agencies or eventually we may get to a situation where AOW certs will not be universally accepted across the board if they differ too much in their requirements/instruction. I believe that it's the instructor that makes the diver, not the agency that is issuing the card.

 

[lowwall]

Much of what you and others want to see in a "competent OW diver" comes from experience and mentoring. The stated purpose of AOW is to let people try out a few things and see where they want their diving to go. It is a sampler course, not a "fix OW" course.

That's what they say. But the problem is that AOW is not treated that way in much of the world. If the dive op won't let you on certain dives without it, or restricts you to 18m without, it must be teaching advanced skills. Right?

That's the disconnect to me. PADI claims that OW produces fully capable recreational divers and AOW is just a sampler. But many of their own affiliated ops, even the vaunted "5 Star" resorts, treat OW and AOW divers as different animals.

Instead of hypocrisy, how pushing PADI Scuba Diver for the large numbers of prospective divers that just want to have the experience (i.e. Instagram photos) and/or want to stick to the occasional easy guided dives? And then toughen up the objectives for the OW cert to something like what Jim Lapenta is doing.

It would be a win for everyone. The basic class could be even shorter and cheaper, which the shops and customers and PADI would like. You'd have a huge class of divers that could only dive through an op which would be good for their business. PADI would get to introduce a Scuba Diver to OW transition course. More certs = more $. And, finally, the rest of us would have to find something else to bitch about.

 

[Belzelbub]

I found that out when I crossed over to the YMCA and NAUI at the DM level and helped with a YMCA class. Completely different animal and standards.

Interesting. I never really studied the standards. I did my first OW through PADI. Second OW was through YMCA, but at the end of the class we could pay extra for NAUI and/or CMAS cards if we wanted

AOW (EAN, Deep, Night, and Nav) through SSI.

Compared to my PADI course, I learned a lot in AOW. However, that course didn’t even meet PADI standards, so probably not a good barometer.

Definitely less of a gap between the YMCA class and AOW courses. Though I still did learn some, and more importantly, got to practice skills while an instructor watched, to fine tune if necessary.

Now, it makes sense why I thought many of the students in my EAN class had no business with an OW card.