What really is an "Advanced Open Water" diver?

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Maybe a good one would be S & R.-- Who knows when buddy separation may require a search. Safety.

Buddies should ascend after looking no more than a minute for each other. It isn't the time to start search patterns.

 

[TMHeimer]

Buddies should ascend after looking no more than a minute for each other. It isn't the time to start search patterns.

Yes I (obviously) know that. The buddy is lost, maybe dead. You have already ascended and waited for him/her. You call 911, but are many miles from anywhere. Knowing S&R can't help, no? Or do you just sit there and hope?
I recall this stuff being taught in the PADI DM manual, exactly what to do, how to deal with the scene, possible bystanders that could help, etc.
Just saying, knowing the S & R stuff can be a safety thing, so it may be a good dive to be included in the AOW course. Can't hurt.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Yes I know that. The buddy is lost, maybe dead. You have already ascended and waited for him/her. You call 911, but are many miles from anywhere. Knowing S&R can't help, no? Or do you just sit there and hope?
I recall this stuff being taught in the PADI DM manual, exactly what to do, how to deal with the scene, possible bystanders that could help, etc.

Every diver should take a rescue course from their agency of choice.
One S&R adventure dive is not going to give a diver the skills to bring a body to the surface safely. I do not believe in expecting divers to do things beyond their training. The first rule of being a rescuer is being able to evaluate a scene for their own safety. When I was a ski patroller and had to search for people out of bounds, if the avalanche report was medium or worse risk, I wouldn't have gone searching for them. Let's not turn one fataility into two fatalities.

 

[TMHeimer]

Every diver should take a rescue course from their agency of choice.
One S&R adventure dive is not going to give a diver the skills to bring a body to the surface safely. I do not believe in expecting divers to do things beyond their training. The first rule of being a rescuer is being able to evaluate a scene for their own safety. When I was a ski patroller and had to search for people out of bounds, if the avalanche report was medium or worse risk, I wouldn't have gone searching for them. Let's not turn one fataility into two fatalities.

I see your point here, and of course agree with you on Rescue course for everyone. Must give what you say some thought. Maybe it's a little bit of a balancing act-- maybe your buddy got entangled and by not making an attempt to find him he runs out of air. Or, you could somehow get yourself killed looking for him since you're not rescue trained. Hard to say. After I took Rescue I told my OW buddy a couple of things I wanted him to know in case I ever got into trouble.
If we leave out the searching for a buddy/body, then for sure I take back my idea of it being a good AOW dive.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I see your point here, and of course agree with you on Rescue course for everyone. Must give what you say some thought. Maybe it's a little bit of a balancing act-- maybe your buddy got entangled and by not making an attempt to find him he runs out of air. Or, you could somehow get yourself killed looking for him since you're not rescue trained. Hard to say. After I took Rescue I told my OW buddy a couple of things I wanted him to know in case I ever got into trouble.
If we leave out the searching for a buddy/body, then for sure I take back my idea of it being a good AOW dive.

I don't want to get into a different discussion on open water training, as I know certain characters will chime in, mods will get involved and delete comments. So I just won't present them the opportunity to start.

 

[NothingClever]

I don’t think it would be hard to come up with a vetted skills list with appropriate measures of performance and measures of effectiveness to tighten up the herd of sloppy “Margaritaville” divers around the world.

But if all of ScubaBoard agreed on that list, what are we going to actually do with the info to restore value to the meaning of “advanced open water”?

How do we convince the “for profit” instructional industry to raise the bar ?

How do we influence the WRSTC to guide certifying organizations to tighten the standards?

If that isn’t feasible, what do we do to improve what we CAN control?

 

[TMHeimer]

I don't want to get into a different discussion on open water training, as I know certain characters will chime in, mods will get involved and delete comments. So I just won't present them the opportunity to start.

Very good point, as I was about to weigh in on rescue skills in OW. There has already been comments like the AOW stuff should be taught as part of OW, and maybe go back to the OW1 & OW2 titles of long before I was certified.
In the end I think it gets back to what kind of diving you regularly do. That is why I think the AOW course should contain those dives/material that relates to safety and generally good diving.
Your point back there about divers needing to be guided sort of backs me up on this. To me it's all about basics, safety, etc., not dives like Fish Naturalist, underwater photography, and a host of others being included in the 5 AOW dives.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I don’t think it would be hard to come up with a vetted skills list with appropriate measures of performance and measures of effectiveness to tighten up the herd of sloppy “Margaritaville” divers around the world.

But if all of ScubaBoard agreed on that list, what are we going to actually do with the info to restore value to the meaning of “advanced open water”?

How do we convince the “for profit” instructional industry to raise the bar ?

How do we influence the WRSTC to guide certifying organizations to tighten the standards?

If that isn’t feasible, what do we do to improve what we CAN control?

I don't expect the agencies to ever really change. The only recourse is for instructors to raise the bar for themselves and help other instructors looking at raising their own bar. That's it.

 

[Jafo19D]

In my case AOW just made my wallet a bit lighter; I really don’t feel like I learned much. Like learning how to drive, the training only gets you ready for gaining experience.

 

[Bob DBF]

I usually tell my students that the industry would have them believe that after open water, they are fully qualified divers, but that's just marketing. In truth, they are qualified to dive on shallow dives, while guided by a dive professional.

Then they have not been trained to WRSTC standards. Any instructor that has not trained an OW diver to plan and conduct, NDL dives when accompanied by another certified diver should have their instructor card pulled.

If they are not fully qualified divers they should not get an OW card. I guess you know the quality of training you provide, more than I.

When I got PADI OW certified we were taught that we were able to plan and conduct a shore dive on our coast where we certified, with another OW certified buddy with no guide needed or any supervision.

That is still the WRSTC standard. And should be the minimum standard of training, imho.

To me it means one of two things.
1. Someone who wants to be better trained to handle conditions and situations likely to be encountered by an average diver.
2. Card collector

I must be a card collector. After my first 17 years of diving, I got an OW card to get air outside my usual sources. 29 years later I picked up an AOW card so I could go on a particular dive op. I picked up some others, but that is a different story.