What makes one cave instructor more expensive than the other (in their own mind?)

[MichaelMc]

Certain big name sidemount rigs are known to be junk without extensive modifications.

Any hints at preferred sidemount mods? Without claiming that such original rigs are junk.... I'm part way through replacing my xDeep's suitable-for-towing-a-truck massive D rings and other bits with SumpUK fixed hardware.

(off topic, sorry)

 

[rjack321]

Any hints at preferred mods? Without claiming that such original rigs are junk.... I'm part way through replacing my sidemount xDeep suitable-for-towing-a-truck massive D rings and other bits with SumpUK fixed hardware.

(off topic, sorry)

Most anything nomad lol

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

There are other paths to this same end...

GUE would say that a fundamentals tech pass is a solid platform to work with and adding a reel is not a big challenge for divers at that level (which seems to be true and accurate from what I've seen)

Similarly its totally reasonable to work hit up some of your local divers (GUE groups are especially good at this) with requests for mentoring "Hey I'm headed down to Edd in 3 months for cavern class. Anyone will to spend an afternoon with me at Gilboa helping work out my fumble fingers on the reel?"

True but the advantage of UTD is that you do not need to shop for local divers to help you. Since you have paid UTD for the course, the agency has taken it upon itself to host that practice session and the group that is participating it can then work with each other independently of the instructor, as a team until they can pass. Considering that the overall UTD certification costs less than the GUE certification, this is a significant advantage IMHO.

One of the criticism we see of UTD is that they break training into smaller components to make money. How so? When I do the math and add up the cost of each training component, it is still far far much less than GUE.

 

[rjack321]

Do you really need UTD to organize / hook you up with local divers that are interested in taking cave training?

The whole premise of this thread, "class value for the dollar" kind of talk is a bit of a distraction IMHO. If I were considering cave training today I would:
1) Find at least one and preferably 2 local divers who are interested as well
2) As a group solicit input on "go to instructors" (NOT who to avoid)
3) Sit down together and compare programs/offerings that fit your schedule and short vs long term objectives
4) Double check your tentatively IDed instructor isn't a jerk or an idiot by soliciting opinions outside of your group on that one name.
4) Final instructor pick and tell them your background (individually and as a group, perhaps you all took AN/DP together already for instance)
5) Select a course date
6) Find some local divers to help you prepare/ID weak spots
7) Take your diving class(es) and try not to hand-wring about passing or not.

Some of this could be filled by a course like Fundamentals with a tech pass, some by UTD OHP, some by local divers you respect, some by taking a trip to dive the Oriskany and stopping in High Springs or Marianna and actually meeting people.

Personally it costs what it costs and you need to be prepared to just pay what it ends up being - instead of somehow trying to work price into your decision tree.

 

[tbone1004]

True but the advantage of UTD is that you do not need to shop for local divers to help you. Since you have paid UTD for the course, the agency has taken it upon itself to host that practice session and the group that is participating it can then work with each other independently of the instructor, as a team until they can pass. Considering that the overall UTD certification costs less than the GUE certification, this is a significant advantage IMHO.

One of the criticism we see of UTD is that they break training into smaller components to make money. How so? When I do the math and add up the cost of each training component, it is still far far much less than GUE.

where are you cave diving? I don't think I've ever actually come across a UTD certification while cave diving in this country.... I have seen a LOT of GUE cave certs....

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Do you really need UTD to organize / hook you up with local divers that are interested in taking cave training?

The whole premise of this thread, "class value for the dollar" kind of talk is a bit of a distraction IMHO. If I were considering cave training today I would:
1) Find at least one and preferably 2 local divers who are interested as well
2) As a group solicit input on "go to instructors" (NOT who to avoid)
3) Sit down together and compare programs/offerings that fit your schedule and short vs long term objectives
4) Double check your tentatively IDed instructor isn't a jerk or an idiot by soliciting opinions outside of your group on that one name.
4) Final instructor pick and tell them your background (individually and as a group, perhaps you all took AN/DP together already for instance)
5) Select a course date
6) Find some local divers to help you prepare/ID weak spots
7) Take your diving class(es) and try not to hand-wring about passing or not.

Some of this could be filled by a course like Fundamentals with a tech pass, some by UTD OHP, some by local divers you respect, some by taking a trip to dive the Oriskany and stopping in High Springs or Marianna and actually meeting people.

Personally it costs what it costs and you need to be prepared to just pay what it ends up being - instead of somehow trying to work price into your decision tree.

Do I "need" UTD to hook me up with local divers? Perhaps not. Do I mind it? Definitely not at all but that is not the reason why OHP has value. From what I understand, OHP is designed to teach reel work, black out mask drills, shutdown etc and all that which does not need a real cave. This is done under instructor supervision prior to going to expensive overseas destinations such as Mexico. This breakdown will have value for folks like me who are based in DC and would have to travel to Mexico or Florida and would like to do as much preparation as we can prior to landing.

If you are unable to meet standards in OHP, just like people are unable to meet tech standards in Fundies in the first go, then it is not a big deal because we have not left home yet. We have all the time to practice and get good and be evaluated locally before we fly out. To me this is a significant value when you compare it to the option of arriving in Mexio totally green and letting the instructor manage your mess @ 250 USD per day or whatever their price may be.

For those who are already in Florida or in Mexico near caves then this may not be of as much value as it would be to me. I may be one of those who will get their stuff right upon arriving at the location and then working with the instructor there and then. The biggest question is, do I mind if anything and everything that does not require overhead environment is taught to me prior to flying out? If the cost of the overall certification is still less than GUE then do should I mind?

In the end everything is to be gained and nothing is to be lost IMHO.

 

[rjack321]

where are you cave diving? I don't think I've ever actually come across a UTD certification while cave diving in this country.... I have seen a LOT of GUE cave certs....

Good lord they have a ton of classes and minis and everything under the sun

There is one OHP instructor in the midatlantic (don't know him), one in the great lakes (who I do know). The rest in SoCal, MX, or here in WA
Find an Instructor · UTD Scuba Diving

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

where are you cave diving? I don't think I've ever actually come across a UTD certification while cave diving in this country.... I have seen a LOT of GUE cave certs....

My local UTD group in Washington DC goes to Mexico for all their cave training and cave diving. If anyone is diving in Florida then I do not know.

 

[tbone1004]

Good lord they have a ton of classes and minis and everything under the sun

There is one OHP instructor in the midatlantic (don't know him), one in the great lakes (who I do know). The rest in SoCal, MX, or here in WA
Find an Instructor · UTD Scuba Diving

note I said while cave diving which is the discussion of this thread. I know several UTD instructors and plenty of divers, hell my favorite podcast is run by someone who was a founding instructor for UTD.
Point still stands, and apparently echo'd by @CAPTAIN SINBAD that most of their cave diving is done abroad. I am not actually sure if they have any instructors in Florida....
That alone means that I would never recommend someone take a UTD cave course if it's being done in Florida because the instructors aren't actively doing those kinds of dives. You should never take a course from an instructor who isn't actively doing the type of diving you are trying to do. Not to say they shouldn't take a UTD cave course, but for cave diving in general, you need to take a course from someone who lives and dives in the area that you are wanting to dive, diving a configuration similar to the one you plan to dive, and ideally with a diving style you intend to dive. I.e. if you want to dive doubles, in a team, in Florida, take a GUE course. If you want to dive sidemount, in Florida, with a solo mentality, take it from Edd. If you want to dive in Mexico, in sidemount, take it from Widmann/Bogaerts/etc etc. I see so many people make mistakes in training by taking courses from instructors that don't actively dive the way the student wants to learn to dive.

 

[rjack321]

Do I "need" UTD to hook me up with local divers? Perhaps not. Do I mind it? Definitely not at all but that is not the reason why OHP has value. From what I understand, OHP is designed to teach reel work, black out mask drills, shutdown etc and all that which does not need a real cave. This is done under instructor supervision prior to going to expensive overseas destinations such as Mexico. This breakdown will have value for folks like me who are based in DC and would have to travel to Mexico or Florida and would like to do as much preparation as we can prior to landing.

If you are unable to meet standards in OHP, just like people are unable to meet tech standards in Fundies in the first go, then it is not a big deal because we have not left home yet. We have all the time to practice and get good and be evaluated locally before we fly out. To me this is a significant value when you compare it to the option of arriving in Mexio totally green and letting the instructor manage your mess @ 250 USD per day or whatever their price may be.

For those who are already in Florida or in Mexico near caves then this may not be of as much value as it would be to me. I may be one of those who will get their stuff right upon arriving at the location and then working with the instructor there and then. The biggest question is, do I mind if anything and everything that does not require overhead environment is taught to me prior to flying out? If the cost of the overall certification is still less than GUE then do should I mind?

In the end everything is to be gained and nothing is to be lost IMHO.

So why did you start this thread if you knew your wanted to go down the UTD route?

I'm glad you think OHP has value. I'm going to agree to disagree that OHP is as valuable as you think it is (I have no more actual data than you do, and technically I am a GUE/NSS-CDS/PSIA trained cave diver since 2005)