What makes one cave instructor more expensive than the other (in their own mind?)

[KevinNM]

However, two instructors talking among themselves is not the same as someone telling another diver that they suck so bad they should retake a class.

I know of the GUE cave 1 class where the instructor told the students they were not prepared for the class, and then gave them essentially the worlds most expensive fundamentals class instead. And then he called their fundamentals instructor and complained to him. Apparently the final story was they all passed the class as a team with solid tech passes, and then didn't dive - at all - until they took cave 1 many months later.

 

[KevinNM]

I wonder what it would cost me to start over with GUE to have the same level of certs as I have now.

CCR Cave Instructor & Trimix.

I'm guessing more than 20k, but it's just a wild in the dark guess.

You can get an IE to exempt you from having to take a class. Someone on scubaboard said they were able to get directly into tech 2 via this method. You just have to be able to go dive with the IE and show him you have the skill and mindset of a graduate from the class.

I took fundamentals from an IE. It was brutal, he didn't pass any of us. But we couldn't do what the class required to pass.

 

[tbone1004]

@CAPTAIN SINBAD that statement was more that what I have done, and what I would do for me if I were to do it all over again may well be very different than you given that we have different goals/desires/needs, etc.

• keep in mind that of of the four main cave diving locations, proximity is obviously the biggest driver for most people, but the caves are all completely different and you may find you have a draw to one of the locations for the types of caves themselves. If proximity is the main driver, then obviously take training in that area. Just remember that going from Florida to Mexico is a LOT easier than the other way around. Mexico's complexity is mainly in navigation and taking the courses there doesn't necessarily make you a nav expert for all of those caves so you may still want to hire a guide. Florida's complexity is the depth and flow, and planning big dives there is a completely different animal. France is cold. Bahamas are largely restricted to diving with Brian anyway. Point is if you train in one location, you may want to pay an instructor in one of the other areas for a day of acclimation training.
• The Kool-Aid is access to local divers, potential future projects, etc. It is important in certain areas and well worth the extra money for training. Getting on tech boats in the bay area is much easier if you are "in" with the GUE crowd up there for example, and getting on the WKPP is much easier with a GUE cave 2 card.... Few examples. The big one is getting "in" or staying "in" with local divers. If you like that style of diving, with the three of them particularly the "team" aspect of diving, then it makes sense to stay with them as they do it better than everyone else IMO.
• Backmount certainly makes things easier
• If the main focus for you as a diver is wreck penetration, I would recommend someone who is fluent in wreck diving as they should be able to help tailor the course to that.

 

[MichaelMc]

If you have a local instructor that is an experience cave diver, I'm sure you could pay them for a couple days of training in the subject to expedite your cave course.

Local cave informed non-class training is a good point. I'll look into that.
Cave isn't on my list, but top level cavern training and Cenote are. (and separately side/solo).

When you show up for any technical class as a vacation you will always run the risk that you actually suck or its not suited to you. .... Happens all the time, not really a big deal if you treat it like a journey instead of a goal or destination.

Definitely. My model is learning, and if we master all of X, that would be great. And showing up prepared, without making the class redundant or prep too inefficient.


ETA: For others curious who the Orange Kool-Aid is, that's likely InnerSpace Explorers, with Red/UTD, Blue/GUE.

 

[Jack Hammer]

Here is one breakdown for your comparison. If I am comparing apples to hotdogs then let me know:

GUE:
Fundies: 875
Cave1: 2200
Cave2: 2200

Total cost = 5275

UTD:
Essentials: 650
Overhead Protocols: 875
Cave1 and Cave 2 combined: 1500
Cave 3 (Deco cave course) = 875

Total = 3900 to reach the same level as GUE Cave 2

EDD SORENSON

Cavern: 400
Intro: 400
Apprentice: 400
Cave: 400
Overhead Deco: 600

Total: 2200

I could add more but the above illustrates the overall premise of my post. These are all well reputed names up there.

The cost difference doesnt always equate well to the overall "which is better" equation... its relative and can be difficult to quantify.

My regular dive buddy and I took our cave courses at the same time in Fla. We drove down together and shared a house while he took his training with GUE and I took mine with some one else, ((my funds were not so good at the time) (we both took Fundies together and both had tech passes)). Due to the time of year a lot of systems were blown out so we ended up the same sites and seeing each other in the cave.

Short version is he was up and gone long before I got out of bed each day and returned from class long after I'd gotten back to the house. While I had to show basic proficiency in skills, their classes were doing the skills again and again and again and again, then adding more failures and doing them even more. There is no comparison between what I witnessed their classes doing and what I was doing.

That's not a slam on other agencies, they have some awesome instructors and some great training. 5 years, a few hundred cave dives in varying conditions and locales later, and more training up through cave dpv, I dont feel I had poor instruction and dont regret taking my classes with some one else. That said I still plan on taking cave1 & 2 for the added knowlege and possible skills refinement.

I'll add this, I've seen some "well reputed names" teaching some very questionable classes. I try not to judge as I cant say what conversations were had out of the water or if the students even passed the class (in a few cases I hope for their sake they didnt) I can say I've seen enough questionable things repeatably from respected instructors, as have many experienced cave divers from differing backgrounds, to raise some serious red flags. I've also seen some instructors repeatably teaching classes that were stellar.

Bottom line, do a lot of research. Match personalities, be upfront about your goals, ask questions, dont be afraid to choose some one else, take your time in deciding, be prepared to temporarily fail the class, relax and enjoy the ride...

 

[kensuf]

Watching this thread..

I'm not going to talk about other instructors, just myself here. I think that's been covered enough in this thread that you can understand why.

My current rates are $250/day per person for a group class, $300/day private instruction. I think that's about market on the daily rate, but this year I am splitting cave training into Cave 1 (6 days, basically cavern -> apprentice) and Cave 2 (5 days, full cave + stage), which is more than market because of it's 3 more days. I just feel that more time produces better divers.

Additionally, my students tend to spend a lot of time with me. It's not uncommon for us to have 10-12 hour days at least a few days during the program. I always start at 8-8:30, and usually am not finishing up until 6 or 7 at night. Ask any of my former students, they'll tell you.

This year I'm also now requiring intro to tech or sidemount training as a pre-req.

Both the extra days and pre-reqs have been added due to watching people come in completely unprepared for cave training. Over the past few years, 30% of my full cave students did not pass in their initial attempt to earn full cave in the "minimum" days. Every single one of the ones that didn't pass came to me after having taken intro/basic cave from someone else.

Since I don't do this for a living, I'm OK with being picky and failing students that aren't ready to have a full cave card with my name on it.

 

[boulderjohn]

My current rates are $250/day per person for a group class, $300/day private instruction. I think that's about market on the daily rate, but this year I am splitting cave training into Cave 1 (6 days, basically cavern -> apprentice) and Cave 2 (5 days, full cave + stage), which is more than market because of it's 3 more days. I just feel that more time produces better divers.

I believe that your "adding" of that time is better because you obviously feel it is more realistic in relation to what will happen in your class. When I see typical advertised courses with expected days and fees described, I often wonder how they can take a student with the minimum required experience and training and get them through the class in that amount of time. What happens when they reach the number of days and the student has not demonstrated the required skills? The student must continue with the course until those standards are met, but does the instructor ow charge for those additional days? Will the student feel that the instructor is cheating by not passing him or her on time and thus getting extra pay? I think it is far better to advertise a price and time that your experience tells you will enable you to do the job for all your students, as you do here.

 

[rjack321]

I believe that your "adding" of that time is better because you obviously feel it is more realistic in relation to what will happen in your class. When I see typical advertised courses with expected days and fees described, I often wonder how they can take a student with the minimum required experience and training and get them through the class in that amount of time. What happens when they reach the number of days and the student has not demonstrated the required skills? The student must continue with the course until those standards are met, but does the instructor ow charge for those additional days? Will the student feel that the instructor is cheating by not passing him or her on time and thus getting extra pay? I think it is far better to advertise a price and time that your experience tells you will enable you to do the job for all your students, as you do here.

Well at least for a good friend of mine that I referred to a FL instructor a couple of months ago I can loosely reiterate what happened.

She wanted "cave training" for our local BC area sumps (which are not really anything like FL, but FL is closer to their character than MX).
Flights got delayed due to winter weather in Calgary, she arrives a day late for what was already an optimistic 8 day zero to hero. There was never really a plan to do zero to hero. Was more like "take a week and go get some cave training in FL", nobody is checking cards on BC crown land sumps anyway. There are no gold lines, also no Ts or jumps for that matter.
She takes cavern, intro, and gets through one day of full instead
She goes home with cavern and intro cards and enough background to have a good sense of her limits and what she can and can't accomplish.

I don't think she has plans to return to FL anytime soon due to budget constraints, the exchange rate for Canadians to go to FL is brutal. And there's no complex navigation up here that would be done in days 2 & 3 of full cave either. Is she fully prepared for our local cave dives? No probably not. Could she get that with additional days (in FL) or a card? No probably not that either. She paid for the week's training and they did a week, the plastic bits are not really relevant.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

So, if OHP lets you iron out the unknown length of prelim training without the risks of a fixed length trip to a cave,

and OHP is offered in " midatlantic (don't know him), one in the great lakes (who I do know). The rest in SoCal, MX, or here in WA",

and I live in NorCal, (New Mex, Texas, Utah, etc, etc. etc),

How does that solve the unknown length pre training with a fixed length trip problem???

Cool idea, of pre overhead prelims. Does not seem to solve a travel problem, as well as might be perceived.

Just wanted to add one option that I personally never investigated. I am close to UTD facility so the travel dilemma in regards to OHP never arose but since you asked, I had to look a few things up. If you have a group that is interested in cave training then you can bring in a UTD instructor to you. Once the travel and lodging cost is split between the group then it should only add slightly to the course cost. I also revisited what is being offered in the UTD Overhead Protocols course and it seems far too loaded to be done by grabbing a GUE diver or a cave diving buddy and asking them to introduce you do some reel work just as preparation for Cave 1. This is why UTD Overhead Protocols offers:

1. Line laying and line retrieval
2. No visibility line following
3. Touch contact communication
4. Critical skills with no visibility line following
5. Lost line drills
6. Lost buddy protocol
7. Light failure

There will be mock situations and simulated failures in the course that the team must learn to manage and all these skills are tested by the instructor to a proficiency level similar to Tech 1. That, I think is the critical part or value of the course. I am assuming that GUE will give you your very first introduction to all of the above list during Cave 1??? If that is the case then I can understand why divers are leaving at 8:00 am and returning at 6:00 pm during GUE Cave 1, as they are doing what UTD progression treats as two courses. This also explains rJacks horror why UTD is issuing a C-card for pre-dive prep class when you can grab any Cave diver and let him show you how to work the reel and my own surprise to where can I find such generous cdive buddies who will teach me all of the above to the proficiency of Tech 1 without charging any money?? Curriculum cutoff appears to be drastically different in both agencies. UTD makes you a cave diver in 30 feet of water and then takes you for Cave 1 while GUE makes you a cave diver during their Cave 1.

Now, if there is no local UTD instructor and you have to fly to Mexico to do all the Cave curriculum including OHP, then the fact that UTD is more front loaded at an earlier certification level may not hold any value over GUE. At the end of Cave 1 they would have drank the same Kool aid. The only advantage here seems to be that UTD OHP lets you become a cave diver in your backyard before starting Cave 1. Now I am drawing these observations just from looking at the course descriptions that are listed and not taking either. if I am missing anything crucial in there then I have no clue!

 

[CptTightPants21]

Essentially UTD breaks up their Cave 1 curriculum into a Part 1 and Part 2. UTD Overhead Protocols is 3 days and their Cave 1 is 3 days. GUE Cave 1 is 6 days.

It's not a bad breakdown considering that UTD has multiple technical tracks---Wreck and Cave - and it does allow for cave training to begin outside of a cave diving location. If you need to travel to find a UTD instructor there is no difference between GUE and UTD Cave 1.