What makes one cave instructor more expensive than the other (in their own mind?)

[tbone1004]

This is why UTD Overhead Protocols offers:

1. Line laying and line retrieval
2. No visibility line following
3. Touch contact communication
4. Critical skills with no visibility line following
5. Lost line drills
6. Lost buddy protocol
7. Light failure

1 is complicated. You can teach the basics of primary/secondary tie off's, locks, jumps, etc. but learning proper line placement when you are in a cave is very different and can't be replicated outside of a cave.
2/3/4 can be done with any halfway decent cave buddy. There is nothing really "unique" from agency to agency about those skills. Some disagreements on how you do touch contact, but the different options are usually taught by all instructors. The difference here is it's really hard to replicate the up and down motion of a cave passage in open water. Learning how to control buoyancy with only the line inside of your thumb and forefinger just takes time in that environment. You can get close in some quarries, but they are aren't 3d.
5. no way you can do that in a quarry or pool because those are for all intends and purposes 2d areas with no walls. Lots of different ways to do lost line, but it's not something you can teach outside of a cave IMO.
6. same with lost buddy you can't really do that in anything but a cave because there is nowhere for the diver to hide. Lost diver is simply "tie off to gold line", go look. You look until you find him or you hit a gas limit. No point in doing that in open water
7. light failure is questionable as well. Deploying backup lights is one thing, but you're covering the 0 viz line following which is the important part. Deploying backup lights when you can see is easy.....

All that course is going to do is expedite the learning process once you're at the caves. I did 1/2/3/4 with buddies before I got down to Florida for training, and have helped several friends/students with them before they go. It certainly expedites the process and let's you learn some more of the subtleties, but it's not necessary with good instructors. It MAY shave a day off of training, but the real benefit is the gained comfort so you are less task loaded during those skills.

 

[rjack321]

You do realize that UTD has certified a fraction of the divers that GUE has? And that "your very first introduction to a reel" in GUE Cave1 really isn't as scary and befuddling as you seem to think it is to require a whole prep class to complete. Cave 1 has a solid record of reel work & success - which is even better since implementing the "tech pass" concept in Fundamentals. Having a solid platform to teach from is 90% of success in line work. TDI (in theory) does all of this in 2 days of cavern class - and at least gives you some exposure to actual limestone and legit lost line drills (which requires walls, floors, and depending on the search pattern a ceiling can help)

Bringing in a UTD cave instructor for OHP is probably the worst idea of all. You want someone living and diving where you are training. There might be some exceptions for cave classes in France because those systems are so seasonal to preclude year-round cave diving anyway. You are still better off doing a cavern class or just jumping to cave1 (with NAUI, GUE, NSS etc) in an actual overhead environment

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

You do realize that UTD has certified a fraction of the divers that GUE has?

I do. Along with the fact that the founder of UTD left on a bad note from GUE and certain personality clashes turned into agency rivalry. Then, UTD also started selling the "kool aid" at a much cheaper price than the original one as is obvious from the price I have listed. It would be like taking a Mercedez, stripping the label off and selling it unbranded right outside the Mercedes headquarter at the price of a Toyota. It will cause Mercedez and Toyota to both absolutely and passionately hate you right! But if you happen to the the consumer in the auto-market you would be so delighted that this happening!

This is why Andrew is one of the most hated people on message boards and you can not mention UTD without one side yelling "FAKE COOL AID" and the other side yelling "COOL AID IS BAD!" If you are selling unbranded kool aid then you will be the antagonist of both these slogans. I have great respect for JJ, George Irwin, Andrew G and also for a lot of cave divers / instructors who are in neither of the two camps. I would love to learn from all of them but I have no desire to wear a badge on my chest and cash on legacies in which I had no contribution. Zero!

 

[MichaelMc]

I was just now worried that this might devolve into an agency fight and detract from the OPs question about instructor costs. But then I checked. You're the OP. So, as mentioned about, you already had your answer, on why some are less expensive in their own minds. You just wanted to talk about that more. So I don't feel bad.

Oh, comparing cars is likely easier to judge than the results of Kool-Aid on all sides enhanced training.

 

[rjack321]

It would be like taking a Mercedez, stripping the label off and selling it unbranded right outside the Mercedes headquarter at the price of a Toyota.

Yay ummm no lol

And I've known AG for 15 years. I was his last Tech1 student in GUE. Also took two NAUI classes from him and I am 11 or 12 year buddies with 2 of his first crop of UTD instructors. I am also GUE Cave1 and Cave2 with completely different instructors, NSS-CDS cave CCR with a 4th, and sidemount CCR with a 5th instructor. I don't need the emblem on the front to know how the Mercedes and the Toyota differ under the hood.

If you think UTD-OHP is a good value with an instructor you fly in, then by all means go for it. Ditto if you think the UTD cave 1 is your stick. At this point you are going to do whatever you want no matter what anyone recommends. Not unlike CCR (or DPV) divers who defend their $10K purchase so vigorously because of the sunk cost and emotional investments in said purchase.

I can see how you somehow concluded that all cave training is similar, instructors are well vetted by agencies, they only differ on price etc as you described back in your first post of this thread. It doesn't seem like you really want to listen or read between the lines about the differences, strengths, and weaknesses of what you read in slick marketing proposals that may actually be less than recommended ways of doing things, either pedagogically or because as neato as they sound to the uninitiated (Z-system anyone?) they either don't work, or are a solution to problem that doesn't exist.

 

[boulderjohn]

Am I mistaken, or is there a general trend in some of the threads started by Captain Sinbad? Maybe I am misremembering, but they seem to go like this:

1. I would like to start an objective and unbiased investigation of the different practices of different agencies. Let's gather some information.
2. Let's take a look at them--oh, by the way, one of them appears to be an agency called UTD. Has anyone heard of them?
3. I see you folks have offered information about various agencies. Here is what I have learned about UTD, which you have pretty much not mentioned.
4. Now that I look at it, it sure seems to me that UTD is the best by far.
5. Having taken classes from them, I have seen how great they are first hand.
6. Here is more information about them you may have missed.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Am I mistaken, or is there a general trend in some of the threads started by Captain Sinbad? Maybe I am misremembering, but they seem to go like this:

1. I would like to start an objective and unbiased investigation of the different practices of different agencies. Let's gather some information.
2. Let's take a look at them--oh, by the way, one of them appears to be an agency called UTD. Has anyone heard of them?
3. I see you folks have offered information about various agencies. Here is what I have learned about UTD, which you have pretty much not mentioned.
4. Now that I look at it, it sure seems to me that UTD is the best by far.
5. Having taken classes from them, I have seen how great they are first hand.
6. Here is more information about them you may have missed.

There are two theories. First is that Andrew gives me free pop-corn to start these threads.

Second theory is that whenever life gets boring I like to post a question that is controversial. After that I like to sit back and watch how people try to answer without stepping on each others toes. In this business, people know each other so I like to watch them give information while performing the ballet of political correctness. Some people perform it so gracefully while others are stepping on toes but they are both so entertaining in their own separate ways that I just love to watch them. After sometime they both achieve a bizarre equilibrium where those who do this dance well are synchronizing their movements with the ones who are all over the place. When that moment comes, I like to mention the magic words ...
UTD!!!

 

[Superlyte27]

We had girls like this is middle school. We called them "losers".

 

[MichaelMc]

So glad you enlightened us on that. Be right back....

Excuse me, Mr Chairman, Pete, is there a nice feature we can add that helps identify those with this approach in their personal entertainment vs enlightenment and routes them to some nice sub forum, even a fake one, where they can entertain themselves this way.

Ah, Captain, it will just be a few moments more, hang on....

(goes off to work on a useless junk strewn sub floor to route such discussions to...)

(post 99 of this topic, seems fitting, number of the beast and all, or close enough)

 

[rjack321]

No wonder you have to pay for a class to find buddies