What makes one cave instructor more expensive than the other (in their own mind?)

[Superlyte27]

When I did my cave training, I asked around, and I searched the discussion boards for all the threads asking for recommendations. I learned an important thing--different people are looking for different things from their instructors. I saw, for example, that one instructor was recommended for being a total hard butt. Several people praised him for his ability to swear at you articulately through his regulator. I decided I did not want that. I went instead with someone who had high standards and was able to require that I meet those standards without feeling the need to humiliate me.

I'm not real big on humiliation either. I've cussed at one student ever. He tried very hard to kill both of us in the cave, and almost managed to kill himself. When we got to the surface, I did cuss at him. I kinda feel bad about it. A little. But he had it coming. I am embarrassed that Jill Heinerth was standing next to me for the exchange.

 

[The Chairman]

The best thing anyone can do for their instructor is to post a class report. Tell us what you liked about them and what you didn't like. Then, we can understand why some instructors charge more than others. Promote the great instructors and help the world to know who to learn from.

As for instructors outing other instructors: they will be censured and/or expelled by the agencies they teach for. The agencies don't want that kind of truth out there. Only non-instructors can out bad instructors. Tom Mount has told me that I'm the most irresponsible person in Scuba because of ScubaBoard's policy to allow such negative posting. We allow it within reason. We won't allow cyber-extortion and we've deleted many posts that appear to do just that.

 

[rjack321]

I find it telling that you use zero names. So we're supposed to ask lots of questions and do lots of legwork... And you won't name names.

And don't give me the, 'I'd do it in private but not in public!' That's gossip, not advice. Besides, when a person is just starting into cave diving (by definition: they need an instructor!), where are they supposed to get that advice if not ScubaBoard? They are highly unlikely to physically know *ANYONE* who cave dives. And they likely live a continent away.

This isn't aimed at @rjack321 specifically at all. But I think you in-the-know experienced cave divers are *REALLY* divorced from the reality that the rest of us experience. We don't live there, we don't "know" *anyone*, and there's no one who's volunteering that information to us. At *best* we might get a, "You trained with him, hunh? How'd that go..." Kinda too late then, isn't it?

*points to profile*
1) I'm in Washington State

2) Sorry no not going to name any names here in public to hang out there in perpetuity. I travel to FL. I rent tanks and get fills there. The last thing I need to get served with a libel suit while on vacation. F*** that noise.

 

[rjack321]

Here is one breakdown for your comparison. If I am comparing apples to hotdogs then let me know:

GUE:
Fundies: 875
Cave1: 2200
Cave2: 2200

Total cost = 5275

UTD:
Essentials: 650
Overhead Protocols: 875
Cave1 and Cave 2 combined: 1500
Cave 3 (Deco cave course) = 875

Total = 3900 to reach the same level as GUE Cave 2

EDD SORENSON

Cavern: 400
Intro: 400
Apprentice: 400
Cave: 400
Overhead Deco: 600

Total: 2200

I could add more but the above illustrates the overall premise of my post. These are all well reputed names up there.

Having dove with Edd and taken a cross-over class from him, I would offer the following:
1) He's pretty picky about the students he takes on
2) Those are minimums. There's more time and days built into the GUE and even the UTD courses to cover remedial work. You are likely to need more days (and money) than what you listed - especially to go from OW to actually finishing cavern which is what @Superlyte27 brings up about remedial work. Which for GUE (for instance) happens as part of getting the coveted "tech pass" in Fundamentals.

 

[Superlyte27]

*points to profile*
1) I'm in Washington State

2) Sorry no not going to name any names here in public to hang out there in perpetuity. I travel to FL. I rent tanks and get fills there. The last thing I need to get served with a libel suit while on vacation. F*** that noise.

Rjack, you can say whatever you want about me. I won't sue.

For the record, I never threatened anyone with a .308. That was a complete fiction. I'm debt free and don't owe a single penny to anyone on the planet. I am embarrassed that I certified two students and only two students. One got dropped on his head a few years after class (literally, and lost his mind) The other one is just a moron who thankfully quit diving after ignoring every single thing he learned in class. I teach for fun because I love diving, not because I need the paycheck. With that said, I don't have to pass you due to needing you to take the next class. If you suck, it doesn't impact me financially to tell you that you suck. I almost never yell at a student unless you almost kill yourself. Oh, I've never had a student die. Almost every single one of my students are still active cave divers and I'm super close friends with over a dozen of them.

 

[elgoog]

Here is one breakdown for your comparison. If I am comparing apples to hotdogs then let me know:

GUE:
Fundies: 875
Cave1: 2200
Cave2: 2200

Total cost = 5275

UTD:
Essentials: 650
Overhead Protocols: 875
Cave1 and Cave 2 combined: 1500
Cave 3 (Deco cave course) = 875

Total = 3900 to reach the same level as GUE Cave 2

EDD SORENSON

Cavern: 400
Intro: 400
Apprentice: 400
Cave: 400
Overhead Deco: 600

Total: 2200

I could add more but the above illustrates the overall premise of my post. These are all well reputed names up there.

I was honestly surprised that UTD Cave courses were this rate. I looked up the cost and description for one place in Mexico and C1+C2 combined is 6-7 days minimum. I'm curious how long they actually go. GUE C1 and C2 are 5-6 days each so that's already a big gap in terms of comparing costs. If you add 5 more days at a daily rate of $250, you're at the same cost as GUE.
I didn't look into what OHP covers so maybe that accounts for why C1+C2 is as short as it is (??)

Edd's rates are also his minimums in terms of number of days. His course requirements actually state quite a few more days than the price list page (1 extra day each for cavern and intro, 2-3 days extra for each of apprentice and full). If you add his daily rate of even 6 days, it's a lot closer to GUE and UTD. You'd also have to add the cost of his ITT/Intro to Sidemount/Overhead Sidemount to get equivalence with the GUE and UTD requirements, $400 minimum, as well as the multistage diver class, $400 minimum.

 

[rjack321]

Rjack, you can say whatever you want about me. I won't sue.

For the record, I never threatened anyone with a .308. That was a complete fiction. I'm debt free and don't owe a single penny to anyone on the planet. I am embarrassed that I certified two students and only two students. One got dropped on his head a few years after class (literally, and lost his mind) The other one is just a moron who thankfully quit diving after ignoring every single thing he learned in class. I teach for fun because I love diving, not because I need the paycheck. With that said, I don't have to pass you due to needing you to take the next class. If you suck, it doesn't impact me financially to tell you that you suck. I almost never yell at a student unless you almost kill yourself. Oh, I've never had a student die. Almost every single one of my students are still active cave divers and I'm super close friends with over a dozen of them.

Nah no bashing, I know you're the real deal.

 

[rjack321]

I was honestly surprised that UTD Cave courses were this rate. I looked up the cost and description for one place in Mexico and C1+C2 combined is 6-7 days minimum. I'm curious how long they actually go. GUE C1 and C2 are 5-6 days each so that's already a big gap in terms of comparing costs. If you add 5 more days at a daily rate of $250, you're at the same cost as GUE.
I didn't look into what OHP covers so maybe that accounts for why C1+C2 is as short as it is (??)

OHP is three days by itself or can be combined with cave1 for a five (or sometimes 6) day class
Overhead Protocols · UTD Scuba Diving

I would say combining OHP with cave 1 is more likely than combining UTD cave 1 &2. But I don't even know how much market UTD even has for cave training honestly, it seems fairly small to me.

 

[The Chairman]

The last thing I need to get served with a libel suit while on vacation. F*** that noise.

Did you type that with a straight face? Libel suits are incredibly hard to win and that's why we hardly ever hear of them, especially in Scuba. The chances of anyone getting sued for things they post on SB are close to none. You have a far, far better chance of getting bent. Yes, there was one highly visible libel suit here on SB, and I bore the brunt of that. They were hoping to put SB out of business and due to the generosity of many here, they did not succeed. Most people learned a valuable lesson from that experience and have not resorted to censorship by litigation.

• Stick to the truth.
  • The absolute best defense against a libel suit is the truth.
• Avoid overreaching accusations
  • Don't post "they are crooks", rather post "I felt cheated".
  • Don't post "they are dangerous", rather post "I felt unsafe
• Cite facts as often as possible
• Tell us how you feel!
  • Your version of the facts might be debatable
  • Your feelings are yours: no debate!
• Never threaten anyone with posting.
  • That's extortion

 

[rjack321]

Did you type that with a straight face? Libel suits are incredibly hard to win and that's why we hardly ever hear of them, especially in Scuba. The chances of anyone getting sued for things they post on SB are close to none. You have a far, far better chance of getting bent. Yes, there was one highly visible libel suit here on SB, and I bore the brunt of that. They were hoping to put SB out of business and due to the generosity of many here, they did not succeed. Most people learned a valuable lesson from that experience and have not resorted to censorship by litigation.

• Stick to the truth.
  • The absolute best defense against a libel suit is the truth.
• Avoid overstating accusations .
  • Don't post "they are crooks", rather post "I felt cheated".
  • Don't post "they are dangerous", rather post "I felt unsafe"
    • Cite facts as often as possible
    • Tell us how you feel!
      • Your version of the facts might be debatable
      • Your feelings are yours: no debate!
    • Never threaten anyone with posting.
      • That's extortion [/list

You don't have to lose to be miserable. It's not worth it to me to "out" crappy instructors - there is seriously no upside for me. Nothing zip zilch.

If a friend who I have a relationship with asks for an instructor recommendation, I provide them with a short list (I did this just 2 months ago) so far those who ask have been quite happy with my suggestions.

4 or 5 years ago a different friend said they were getting trained with a less than stellar instructor. I told them why I thought this was a bad idea.