What makes one cave instructor more expensive than the other (in their own mind?)

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

I dive with and have been trained by a highly respected shop. No need to mention who that is on this thread, that's not what is important at the moment. IMO - It is all about the shop and the instructor and price becomes second. The price to pay includes the cost of high quality gear, high quality training (in water and classroom) and you need the correct mindset.

 

[boulderjohn]

I find it telling that you use zero names. So we're supposed to ask lots of questions and do lots of legwork... And you won't name names.

Doing so can lead to legal unpleasantries as the named instructor consults with an attorney about defamation.

You can safely point to factual incidents, as has been done several times in this thread, but simply saying an individual is a terrible instructor without those identifying facts can be problematic.

 

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

I find it telling that you use zero names. So we're supposed to ask lots of questions and do lots of legwork... And you won't name names.

And don't give me the, 'I'd do it in private but not in public!' That's gossip, not advice. Besides, when a person is just starting into cave diving (by definition: they need an instructor!), where are they supposed to get that advice if not ScubaBoard? They are highly unlikely to physically know *ANYONE* who cave dives. And they likely live a continent away.

This isn't aimed at @rjack321 specifically at all. But I think you in-the-know experienced cave divers are *REALLY* divorced from the reality that the rest of us experience. We don't live there, we don't "know" *anyone*, and there's no one who's volunteering that information to us. At *best* we might get a, "You trained with him, hunh? How'd that go..." Kinda too late then, isn't it?

Here is where I think you should begin...
What gear (harness and wing) do you have or are you prepared to purchase? There are two highly respected choices. Pick one of those two. Don't buy something else because it cheaper or your possible instructor teaches with that gear.
Second - who are the very best to learn from? I would suggest the designers of the gear. Both of them live and work in Mexico. No disrespect to any Flordia instructors. I haven't been there to cave dive and so I cant give advise on who are the best choices. There will certainly be high quality teaching available there too.

 

[Nirvana]

I find it telling that you use zero names. So we're supposed to ask lots of questions and do lots of legwork... And you won't name names.

Like some of the previous posters, I know of badly trained cave divers. I've also seen instructors conducting classes in ways that I consider lacking in quality, to say the least.

Still, I think that naming supposedly bad instructors is not the way to go. By doing so, you invite animosity and bickering, besides potentially shaming someone for what may have been one bad class they taught.

I consider it much better to offer names that you believe that consistently do a good job in their classes.

 

[victorzamora]

Thanks. Elaborate please.

There's really not much more to say other than "You made an assumption that was incredibly wrong" but I'll expand a bit below.
​

At least from my humble vantage point, everyone who dives deep into caves, all do some very high level dives.

Two issues here:

1. Doing big dives is not by itself an indicator of quality instruction. Arguably, the two are almost independent of eachother.
2. The variance in dive complexity that most active instructors are achieving is pretty dramatic.

What would cause one to be more expensive than the other?

That's the price the instructor sets. Price does not equal quality. Cave Instruction is a free market economy. Higher prices will lower demand, demand and quality are essentially independent of eachother.

Besides that, the time that a student spends under the instructor is not that different.

The MINIMUM times may not be different, but actual times may well be. Also, the efficacy of each minute will vary dramatically between instructors.

the skills they learn are also not that different.

The minimums may not vary, but this will vary. The quality of instruction, the variety of solutions, the efficacy of the instruction, the "quality" of the skills, etc will all vary.​

The standards for passing are not that different either.

The minimums may not vary (have you noticed a trend yet?), but the actual standards will absolutely vary. There are some instructors that I doubt could pass the basic levels of other instructors.

​

Does is all come down to the legacy that the instructor perceives for him or herself? Or do some instructors pride themselves for developing unique teaching methods like special slides or videos, training drills etc?

I highly doubt that a Powerpoint Presentation is going to have any impact in instructor pricing.


One last note: Do NOT let cost dictate your training. That is NOT the way to go about it.​

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

@CAPTAIN SINBAD can you give some outline to the price differential and if the courses are comparable?

I.e. the $5500 sounds like GUE training, but that would include fundies, Cave 1, and Cave 2. A total of about 2 weeks of training, and goes thru decompression, stage diving, etc.
The $1500 sounds like "normal" training which does not include fundies or most of cave 2.

A better discussion would be to look at the $/day that the instructors are quoting. Solo or buddy class? Does the instructor have to travel, or are they local?

MOST instructors I've seen charge $300/day for solo class, or $200/day/student with a buddy pair.

If we look at Steve Martin, he charges $275/day/diver in Mexico. It includes gas fills *call it $40/day*, and equipment use if you don't have it.
Most Florida cave instructors are $300/day, but fills and equipment are not included. That's not a bad deal.

You need to post some more information on the costs that you're looking at, where they are, if the instructor is travelling, what the course includes, how many days, etc.

Here is one breakdown for your comparison. If I am comparing apples to hotdogs then let me know:

GUE:
Fundies: 875
Cave1: 2200
Cave2: 2200

Total cost = 5275

UTD:
Essentials: 650
Overhead Protocols: 875
Cave1 and Cave 2 combined: 1500
Cave 3 (Deco cave course) = 875

Total = 3900 to reach the same level as GUE Cave 2

EDD SORENSON

Cavern: 400
Intro: 400
Apprentice: 400
Cave: 400
Overhead Deco: 600

Total: 2200

I could add more but the above illustrates the overall premise of my post. These are all well reputed names up there.

 

[boulderjohn]

I used to be in school administration, and I was heavily involved with creating a teacher evaluation system for our school district. I had to do a lot of research for that. In regard to this discussion, I would like to report one research finding.

One of the things you often here regarding teacher evaluation, is that you don't have to spend long in a school system before you learn that everyone in the system knows who the good teachers are and who the bad teachers are. If everyone already knows this, why is it so hard to find a formal system that officially recognized what everyone knows?

Several studies have worked on that question, and what they concluded was that of all the ways of evaluating teachers, that is the worst. The "everybody knows" system is highly inaccurate.

 

[Johnoly]

I like the instructors who sleep with their students. Their getting a C-card even with the extra home work.

 

[Superlyte27]

I've never encountered someone who would say anything of the sort (regardless of the training level) to someone's face. On the internet is another story.

I do recall overhearing a discussion between my instructor and some other instructor when we were doing dives at peacock. They went on about how terrible these puppy mill type instructors were, and how they produced crappy students weekend after weekend. I don't recall any instructor names, although I do recall hearing him name an agency that he didn't think much of.

However, two instructors talking among themselves is not the same as someone telling another diver that they suck so bad they should retake a class.

I have told students that they had to re-do cavern class before they could take my intro to cave class. Absolutely true, even though it's on the interwebs.

 

[tmassey]

Several studies have worked on that question, and what they concluded was that of all the ways of evaluating teachers, that is the worst. The "everybody knows" system is highly inaccurate.

Truly, this is what I hate about SCUBA instruction. Between @rjack321 's suggestion ("You need to do WAY more legwork and ask around more.") and @boulderjohn 's finding quoted above, where are we left?

This is not rhetorical. I just finished writing down my thoughts about the value of SCUBA instruction I've received in the past decade as I get ready for GUE Fundamentals at the end of the month. Literally about 20,000 words about it. And in the end, the value received was way, way below the value expected.

How is a student supposed to avoid this? Heck if I know.

EDIT to ADD: The fact that I received less value than expected was not always the fault of the instructor. Sometimes my expectations did not agree with what the class could provide. Just in case former instructors wonder what I thought was so terrible... It's not you, it's me! (20,000 words to deal with the angst of 10 years of SCUBA training. It's not pretty.)