"What if ..?"

[AndyNZ]

Decompression obligations in open water hit me hard, in a way that a couple of thousand feet of penetration in a cave don't.

I presume you mean psychologically, Lynne?

I guess that we are creatures of our environment, for me it's the opposite. 20-30 minutes of deco on a 30-45m dive has reached the point where it seems almost routine. You always have options, and choosing to blow your stops may not be fatal... in some respects, for the similar situation that Trace described, you can make quick decisions and deal with the outcomes immediately.

Swimming for an hour to get out of a cave, having made your choice, with your mind telling you it was the wrong one.... watching your SPG and hoping, or wallowing in grief. That time would seem awfully long to me.....

... but then I dabble in caverns, not caves, and am doing a lot more open ocean diving. That familiarity is what I think pushes us to stretch our limits... which is why I said that 30 minutes of deco is almost routine, the moment it becomes routine is the time that I need to worry about it the most.

Which is weird, as I have a certain wary-ness about caves but will be like a rat up a drainpipe when it comes to wrecks.

 

[mafiajoe]

20-30 minutes of deco on a 30-45m dive has reached the point where it seems almost routine.

In my case i would get rid of that"almost".Virtually all my dives are in the 40/60+m.range and involve 20-30+minutes deco stops.Boring,but you get used to it.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

yes, i've had the discussion with my regular buddy. we're responsible to the same child - one of us gets *out*.

but that does *not* mean that i cut & run at the first hint of trouble. i'll stay and try to work the problem as long as i possibly can without added jeopardy.

and it was a discussion in my intro to tech class, too. the instructor introduced the idea of isolating if someone goes on your long hose & gas is tight. not as a thing to do, but as a thing to think about. this is definitely not a case of 'two is one and one is none'!

though i totally respect those who say that it's as good a way to die as any, trying to help.

I think you hit the nail on the head as this is the point of the discussion here. It is to get us to think about what if it really happens. Trace set this up as everything you could have done you have, and now it is me or thee. Not the first hint of trouble, but no other options. Your choice involves family that will be left behind by one or both. It usually does anyway. Hopefully this discussion will help people plan and not ever get into this situation.

 

[Doc Harry]

...Remember when you promised yourself never to leave the gold line, or that you wouldn't die cave diving because you would only make one jump - ever? Then, before you know it, you're picking up your clothespin at T-72!..

Yup!

..I agree that none of us really knows what he or she would do until it happens, but I also think there's enormous value in considering the question..

Yup!

 

[Walter]

I'm 24 years old. I've barely lived at all. I'm not going to check out early if I can help it at all.

I don't want you to check out early, but I do hope that someday you experience love and can imagine giving your life for another. I also hope you never actually have to face the choice. At 24, I would have been more willing than now. My grandmother once told me, "Life is still precious to the old." She was right.

I think if you believe in an afterlife you can't possibly contemplate what it is like to be in my position.

You think incorrectly. I've given the concept a great deal of thought. What is amazing is that you aren't paralyzed by fear. You know you will die someday. You believe you will cease to exist at that point. You know there's nothing you can do to stop it. That's the worst hell I can imagine.

No the military would not be necessary if the world did not treat things like a prisoner's dilemma. The lives given by others for 'freedom' are such a waste.

Not a waste at all. If every country would let others live in peace and if every country granted freedom to its people, I would agree with you. The world isn't like that, so those sacrifices have been necessary, not all, but many of them.

 

[Sas]

I don't want you to check out early, but I do hope that someday you experience love and can imagine giving your life for another. I also hope you never actually have to face the choice. At 24, I would have been more willing than now. My grandmother once told me, "Life is still precious to the old." She was right.

I love my partner. If he dived I would have to rethink the choices I've said I would make here. It is partly for him that I would do everything I could to make it back.

You think incorrectly. I've given the concept a great deal of thought. What is amazing is that you aren't paralyzed by fear. You know you will die someday. You believe you will cease to exist at that point. You know there's nothing you can do to stop it. That's the worst hell I can imagine.

If you've always believed there is something after death, then you cannot know what it is like for those who just cannot believe in an afterlife. The way it changes how you feel about death is huge, and you're right, it is hell (but a hell you can't understand unless you believe that everything about you will cease to exist at death), which is why I am so afraid to die. I just don't think about it, and therefore don't get scared (unless topics like this arise ).

 

[mafiajoe]

you're right, it is hell .......which is why I am so afraid to die. I just don't think about it, and therefore don't get scared (unless topics like this arise ).

I don't mean to be critical,just curious.Why are you so afraid to die if you don't believe in an after life?There will be nothing,hence nothing to be scared of.
I'm a non believer too and I'm afraid of the pain often involved in the process of dieying but not of the dieying itself.I will simply cease to exist.

 

[Walter]

I love my partner. If he dived I would have to rethink the choices I've said I would make here. It is partly for him that I would do everything I could to make it back.

Interesting. How does that mesh with:

There is no way I would sacrifice my life for another

and

I don't think I could sacrifice my life for someone else and this doesn't just relate to diving.

?

Why are you so afraid to die if you don't believe in an after life?There will be nothing,hence nothing to be scared of.

Her fear is quite easy to understand. If she's right, we all cease to exist. There's nothing I would find more frightening than that.

 

[lamont]

Don't do that. I'd testify in court that you'd probably be the only one following what you learned in training in that scenario.

Also, don't forget rule number one ...

Note that I was very careful to specify T2/C2 instructors, and i should have qualified it further to the existing list of instructors... I went through the list, and while I haven't met all of them, I think they all pass rule #1 on the basis of reputation... Bob just barely, of course...

 

[lamont]

If you've always believed there is something after death, then you cannot know what it is like for those who just cannot believe in an afterlife. The way it changes how you feel about death is huge, and you're right, it is hell (but a hell you can't understand unless you believe that everything about you will cease to exist at death), which is why I am so afraid to die. I just don't think about it, and therefore don't get scared (unless topics like this arise ).

I'm in the same ontological/epistomological boat as Sas, but being 38 instead of 24, I've had 14 more years and had a best friend die and had to try to wrap my head around the whole problem.

At some point you just realize that everything naturally has to have an end, and so do you, and you get acceptance of that fact. Going through that is probably why I can do cave diving today and not be freaking out over all the possible consequences on the dive. When I was younger it was a much bigger deal to think about that future, but now its more an issue of trying to figure out why I'm doing what I'm doing with my life in the present... Its not hell at all, once you dig through it...

And, actually given that we're a supposedly christian/religious nation believing in a heavenly afterlife, we sure do fear death a whole lot. Having at least knocked mine back a lot, most of our society seems to be infected with an irrational fear of death and inability to accept it as a natural process -- and it doesn't really seem to differ between atheists/agnostics and religious people.