"What if ..?"

[Trace Malinowski]

Fine. Then don't dive with a buddy, or if you do, let him know that you're gonna leave him for dead if something goes wrong.

Simple.

I find myself in situations ("Insta-Buddy") where I know that I am not going to do anything to save the guy if something goes wrong. So I go solo instead and let him buddy up with someone else.

Simple.

Doc, I haven't said that I would or wouldn't shut off that right post. I've been playing Devil's advocate. My NACD instructor made me aware that I had a choice. I respect him for that. I've had lots of instructors, have lots of instructor friends, but if I were to choose the one instructor who made me think the most about many things, it is Chris. I try to get my students to think as well. Thinking about this matter is the point of this thread. I thought ScubaBoard was lacking a good hot topic that would challenge the interests of the most experienced members.

A bit late in the discussion, but during Fundies Bob Sherwood posed several questions wrt. what you would and wouldn't do in diving and asked us to think it over and jot down our thoughts. For instance:

1) what would / wouldn't you do in your diving in general, such as "would you do 130' dive on an AL80" etc.

2) wrt. team mates, for instance how much deco would you blow off to get a buddy to the surface.

... and yes, even Bob had limits

This seems like something that should be considered individually, as best possible, and probably be discussed between Team members.

Looking at it from the other side of the fence; If I screwed the pooch and got myself and us into such a situation I'd be pissed if my team mate stayed to die with me instead of going home to his kids.

Granted that's trying to think about it rationally sitting (relatively) safely at the 'puter, and I'd probably be in screaming panic in the actual situation. But shouldn't you consider things like that when you're able to think about it rationally?

Henrik

Not at all too late in the discussion to provide that well thought-out insight.

 

[AndyNZ]

I'm not challenging anyone elses opinion btw. I believe this is a subject where there is no "definable" right answer.

Indeed. And I suspect none of us actually have any confidence in what we really would do - until we are in that situation, and have to make that choice. And I wonder whether what each of us would do is what we now say that we would do?

I've been playing Devil's advocate.

That's not like you, Trace... I was expecting a whole bunch of throw away one-liners when I started reading this thread...!

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Indeed. And I suspect none of us actually have any confidence in what we really would do - until we are in that situation, and have to make that choice. And I wonder whether what each of us would do is what we now say that we would do?

That's a good point.

With that in mind, this is what I think I would do ...

We assess value to things, including people. There are people whom I love, people whom I respect, and people for whom culture and society has conditioned me to protect.

Women and children are a no-brainer. I couldn't knowingly terminate the life of a female teammate or a kid. So, Sas and BabyDuck have no worries. Babyduck may wave good-bye to me in a cave, but I'll stick with her.

There are those I love and adore. There would be no way that I would leave my girlfriend or Bob Sherwood. As Henrik pointed out, in Bob's classes, he talks about defining your personal limitations. I have a pretty strong feeling that whatever limits he puts on his personal limitations, each one of his friends gets a special * added. In my case, there's the "*Trace Clause." If Bob were on my long hose (now that would really be out of Sea Hunt), I wouldn't even check the SPG. I'd also truly believe we just might make it.

I won't quit on a friend or a student. In fact, to be my student at certain levels, is to be elevated to a level of respect in my book where I'm willing to die for you or with you.

Others are a case by case basis. I've gone into dives to discover, This guy is an idiot and not worth dying for ... I make that determination by thinking about whether or not my mom would understand the value her first born sacrificing himself for the dude. Other times, I've discovered a bond with someone with whom I'd gladly go into the next world. My Tech 1 buddy became such a guy.

I'm very proud of Kent for being there for Mike.

However, as a lifeguard and scuba instructor, I still do not believe that two should drown.

A sidemount diver in the donor position can decide that the OOG may live and sacrifice his life for the other. A dead backmount donor will kill both.

That's not like you, Trace... I was expecting a whole bunch of throw away one-liners when I started reading this thread...!

Imagine that.

 

[BabyDuck]

i can't believe you'd disobey me like that!

oh, and i met bob in nfl over new year's. now he's seen me drunk, too. another special bond y'all share!

 

[Sas]

Others who believe there is no afterlife don't necessarily believe their life is more important than anything else. I believe there are good people who do good things for reasons other than what's in it for them and who refrain from doing bad things for reasons other than to avoid punishment. Some of them are agnostic or atheist.

Yeah, but everyone is gonna die sooner or later. At some point you've gotta check out.

Why not go down swinging trying to save a buddy? Beats dying slowing with Alzheimer's alone in some retirement home...

I'm 24 years old. I've barely lived at all. I'm not going to check out early if I can help it at all.

Our lives are all fleeting. In time, every one of us will be dead. What difference does it make when death comes? I believe in an afterlife, but even if I didn't I would rather have a short, meaningful life than a long life of selfishness.

I think if you believe in an afterlife you can't possibly contemplate what it is like to be in my position.

No one ever agrees to disagree, unless they want to have a debate and decide to take opposite sides just so they can have a debate. Disagreements simply happen.

I said that as I didn't want to take it too off topic...

I wasn't trying to be patronizing. I was trying to say I respect the fact that you, personally, wouldn't join the military. Don't be so sensitive.

Well I know you were not trying to be patronising which is why I was not annoyed. Just pointing out how patronising something like that is

However, I think the fact that you think the military is unneccisary is a position that is held by someone enjoying the safety purchased by others who gave their lives so that they could enjoy the freedom to express such an opinion.

No the military would not be necessary if the world did not treat things like a prisoner's dilemma. The lives given by others for 'freedom' are such a waste.

Your opinions on self preservation may change when/if you have kids. I have three and know mine did (though not in the way one might immediately think). When I was younger I did not place as much value on my life and might have been more inclined to sacrifice it for a buddy but now I realise a strong sense of responsability for my family and would be less likely to put myself at risk.

Just because I don't have children (and plan never to have them) doesn't mean I don't place a great deal of value on my life. I have a partner who wants me home (to the extent that he is trying to curb the type of diving that I do), as well as friends and family. So I understand your point here.

 

[Sas]

Indeed. And I suspect none of us actually have any confidence in what we really would do - until we are in that situation, and have to make that choice. And I wonder whether what each of us would do is what we now say that we would do?

Well I think also involved too is realising when you've reached the point you have to make that decision. If the choice is between me and my buddy's life, well it's pretty clear cut, but it might be difficult to determine when that point is reached. Also if there's been that many screw ups to get to a point like this, who knows how rational we will be?

Women and children are a no-brainer. I couldn't knowingly terminate the life of a female teammate or a kid. So, Sas and BabyDuck have no worries. Babyduck may wave good-bye to me in a cave, but I'll stick with her.

Why is that? I would prefer to be considered equally as a male, rather than get any special considerations just because of my gender. But if we're ever trapped in a cave with only enough gas for one of us, please, do hand it over

 

[AndyNZ]

Well I think also involved too is realising when you've reached the point you have to make that decision. If the choice is between me and my buddy's life, well it's pretty clear cut, but it might be difficult to determine when that point is reached. Also if there's been that many screw ups to get to a point like this, who knows how rational we will be?

And I also think there are many things that aren't entirely in your control, maybe you've been working hard and got so much CO2 build up that you're narc'd off your tits and you have no idea what you are doing.

I can rationalise it now, but if that situation ever arises I have no idea what I would do. I agree with you, Trace and the others - it makes no sense at all for two people to die. But to leave them to it.... that is tough.

The closest I have got is having to call off searches for people lost in the hills, you know that there is a diminishing chance of them surviving but there is a point where it becomes more of a risk to keep searching.


Whilst Trace is being devils advocate, it does pose other questions. I don't think any of us would ever want to be in that situation (well, apart from one friend of mine who has planned the perfect murder and just isn't sure who to kill - but I wouldn't cave dive with them!), the question itself is "how do you avoid it".

Jumping to that question without the soul searching of the "what if" isn't quite as impactful.

My first thought was, if you were in a team of three - it's a totally different scenario!

My second thought was, we waste so much of the oxygen in our gas - using air, the gas we breathe out still has roughly 16% O2 in it... which to all intents and purposes is still normoxic, and can sustain life - to some degree at least. The problem with using the wing as a rebreather is the build up of CO2. Maybe the next "big thing" might be a bail out rebreather that is small enough to fit in a drysuit pocket? You maybe only need a scrubber to last 20 minutes or so, you don't really need electronics or ppO2 monitoring... I'm sure it could be done.

But assuming it could be, does it then encourage people to push their limits even more??? Leading then to the same, or even a worse situation?

 

[Thalassamania]

I can't imagine being in such a situation, that's strictly bush league.

Since there's no mention of a decompression obligation, I'd happily blow off any safety stop to help my buddy.

 

[Doc Harry]

...I thought ScubaBoard was lacking a good hot topic that would challenge the interests of the most experienced members...

Okay, thank you Trace for stimulating a good discussion, an important discussion.

Everyone has valid points and everyone has to make their own decisions. You've got a responsibility to make your intent clear to your buddy.

I don't think technical scuba diving is like playing tennis or riding a bicycle. Technical scuba with a real or virtual ceiling is rather dangerous with numerous inherent risks. You can't "play" expecting everyone to save your ass, but then plan to run away to save your own ass when it suits you. If you're gonna play the buddy game, then you damn well better be a good buddy, or go play by yourself, or go play another game.

 

[mdb]

All this is just theory-"I would do this or do that etc." It is all conjecture, and a bit of bravado, until
the actual event happens.

Having been in combat in Vietnam I have seen men give their lives to save their buddies; Navy Corpsmen-our beloved "Doc's"- cover the wounded with their own bodies, taking rounds while trying to save a Marine.

The mild mannered, sometimes, perform well under great pressure. The braggard and the "I would do this" type sometimes sh_t their pants and run.

You will never really know what you would do until it happens.

It is good to train though.