"What if ..?"

[Walter]

Well as you already know, I don't believe there is anything after death, so hence why my life is the most important thing to me.

Others who believe there is no afterlife don't necessarily believe their life is more important than anything else. I believe there are good people who do good things for reasons other than what's in it for them and who refrain from doing bad things for reasons other than to avoid punishment. Some of them are agnostic or atheist.

I feel sorry for those that do not realise that their life is the most important thing they have..

Our lives are all fleeting. In time, every one of us will be dead. What difference does it make when death comes? I believe in an afterlife, but even if I didn't I would rather have a short, meaningful life than a long life of selfishness.

but yea we can agree to disagree on that

No one ever agrees to disagree, unless they want to have a debate and decide to take opposite sides just so they can have a debate. Disagreements simply happen.

 

[DaleC]

I don't need your respect, I know you mean well but I find such comments patronising. The military is unnecessary as is people having to make such decisions as discussed here due to the fact they are in the military. There is no need for a military if only the world didn't go all prisoner's dilemma on things. It's an incredible waste of people's time (like my sister, I don't know where she has been for the last six months, nor how safe it is there), their lives and also resources.

I wasn't trying to be patronizing. I was trying to say I respect the fact that you, personally, wouldn't join the military. Don't be so sensitive. However, I think the fact that you think the military is unneccisary is a position that is held by someone enjoying the safety purchased by others who gave their lives so that they could enjoy the freedom to express such an opinion.

Your opinions on self preservation may change when/if you have kids. I have three and know mine did (though not in the way one might immediately think). When I was younger I did not place as much value on my life and might have been more inclined to sacrifice it for a buddy but now I realise a strong sense of responsability for my family and would be less likely to put myself at risk. That being said I would like to believe that, if it came down to me or my wife or kids, I would choose them.

Trace, I don't think many people in the military act in defense of their comrades because of a sense of duty actually, I think they do so because they care for their buddy in the foxhole. Their experiences breed a strong sense of comradeship. Most soldiers probably are quite cinical about sense of duty after a while yet still continue to act altruistically in the field. I distinctly remember reading about one such fellow in Korea who, when a grenade landed close to his squad, simply stomped it into the mud (blowing both his legs off). There was no sense of duty, just a reflex reaction to put his life before his friends. I would like to think I have that love within me but I am also honest enough to know that I might also just jump out of the way.

After you left your buddy for dead, what happens if you run into another group of divers just 5 minutes later?

This though did come to me as the fly in the ointment, so to speak. Some people say that, if worst came to worst, they would pull the pin (which is fine) but my concern is that, if someone doesn't have a stong enough team commitment they may be more inclined to pull the pin too early. That would scare me far more than the fact that someone, ultimately might choose their own life over mine. And I think premature abandonment makes a far more useful/ beneficial subject to discuss/dwell upon.

I don't know if I would want a buddy/team mate who was very quick to state catagorically that they will leave me if things look unresolvable. I would be wondering at what point they might make that call. I don't need someone dying for me but I might want someone giving it their all.

I'm not challenging anyone elses opinion btw. I believe this is a subject where there is no "definable" right answer.

 

[HenrikBP]

A bit late in the discussion, but during Fundies Bob Sherwood posed several questions wrt. what you would and wouldn't do in diving and asked us to think it over and jot down our thoughts. For instance:

1) what would / wouldn't you do in your diving in general, such as "would you do 130' dive on an AL80" etc.

2) wrt. team mates, for instance how much deco would you blow off to get a buddy to the surface.

... and yes, even Bob had limits

This seems like something that should be considered individually, as best possible, and probably be discussed between Team members.

Looking at it from the other side of the fence; If I screwed the pooch and got myself and us into such a situation I'd be pissed if my team mate stayed to die with me instead of going home to his kids.

Granted that's trying to think about it rationally sitting (relatively) safely at the 'puter, and I'd probably be in screaming panic in the actual situation. But shouldn't you consider things like that when you're able to think about it rationally?

Henrik

 

[mafiajoe]

your buddy runs out of gas, and you see that your SPG shows only enough gas, (in your estimation) to get one diver out?

What would you do?

Oh,this one is simple.No need to philosphize,only need to be realistic and rationalut!your buddy is already dead.

 

[lamont]

But, they know that going for the eyes or the gills is an option. Most of us have had training to punch things, or have figured it out growing up. We just don't expect to really ever have to punch a shark.

mythbusters tried it.

its a very low percentage move.

For divers, a discussion about "What if's" like this gives divers options to consider. We train to shut off our buddy's gas every time we do a valve drill. We just never think that we'll be shutting off that valve to kill a teammate.

Drinking alone could be one way of coping with the aftermath.

thing is that there's so many things to think about in order to prevent ever getting there. in the calimba case, i focus on not doing all the things involved in that dive (trust-me guided dives, team cookies, swimming down the wrong passageway taking pictures for 25 minutes, failure to find the other side of the PDL jump, etc). the ultimate case of if i share the last 200 psi with my buddy if we might not have enough to both get out is so far down on the list it just isn't worth all that much thought to me.

i'm more interested in the situation in the calimba dive when they hit the end of the PDL line and realized they were screwed and one of the guys who died attempted to find the other side of the jump. that was the right thing to do in that situation, but his buddy bolted and then everyone followed him the long way around. that is a possible leave-your-buddy scenario. i believe there was also a problem where the jump spool that he was using wasn't long enough to find the other side of the jump, which goes to carrying a 150' safety spool.

even there, i feel like i'm considering problems very far down the accident pit and that i should focus more on just never getting there. the bigger lesson is team navigation and everyone dropping a cookie and not doing trust-me guided dives.

the other thing about the gas-sharing thing is that your framing the scenario like you're the lifeguard -- but really in order to get into that situation there has to have been a major team failure at that point, and both of you are in deep ****, and probably as a result of decisions that were agreed upon by both of you. what if it was *your* unpinned scooter that blew out the viz in the cave and caused the lost line / lost buddy / zero viz exit conditions that ran the team nearly out of gas? do you feel you have any moral culpability for killing him? what do you tell his wife? "sorry, but i blew out the viz and then didn't share gas with him and he died -- btw, are you free saturday night?"

 

[ScubaSteve]

If we can forget about the host of mistakes that happened to get two divers into such a situation, this is definitely more of an ethical and moral question than a technical one IMO. The question really boils down to whether or not an individual could look themselves in the mirror knowing they did not do everything possible to get their buddy out alive. I personally think that it is difficult for almost everybody to really say for sure one way or the other how they would act unless they have been in that type of dire situation. I personally do not think I could look at myself knowing I just left them there. It may not be fair to my loved ones but if I am diving with a buddy and we spontaneously find ourselves in that situation (again forgetting the errors), I believe my moral responsibility is to try to get us both out. If we boith perish then, waste or not, I will know I died trying everything I could to save two lives.

I would rather dive with a buddy with a similar outlook unless they made it clear up front that if it hits the fan, I'm screwed. At least then I know going into the dive.

 

[lamont]

In the real world, I have struggled to keep a friend from making a rapid ascent in a panic. Anyone who has ever dealt with panicked victim fighting you in the water in real-life knows it is a difficult rescue. Underwater, it is more dramatic than Sea Hunt. In the real world, I have felt a myriad of emotions trying to get a friend to GO HOME as he wouldn't move and had the gold line in a death grip. In the real world, I have placed myself in danger making several in-water rescues. In the real world, I have never run from someone who needed help, never lost a student, lost a teammate, or lost a victim. I ended up chasing two muggers in NYC who robbed a girl outside my surgeon's office. She was crying and yelling for help. I'm not a hero. I'm just a guy who believes in doing what is right when it is right.

The bigger scenario for me isn't what happens if my buddy has an issue, but what to do if you see a really excited diver coming out of a cave hauling ass at you who is obviously having issues and goes for your reg...

You don't have any kind of special obligation there, and you do need to make sure that they don't kill you. That is more of an analogy to your 'lifeguard' analogy.

In the real world, I received a phone call telling me I lost my GUE-F buddy and his best friend to a cenote in Mexico ... and was I still coming to the Christmas party? Mike, an attorney, had just gotten married to a beautiful oncologist. He was 100% serious in Fundies. Kent, a dentist, was told that he wasn't a team player, yet once the team had "screwed the pooch" he had two opportunities to be selfish and live.

Sorry about that, I didn't realize that you were that connected to that accident.

(Previous thing about a buddies wife was written before I read this, or I probably wouldn't have gone there...)

AJ's post in the DIR SPG thread got me thinking a lot about that last 250 feet.

I always think more about the 25 minutes they spent going down the PDL line. They went through the heart restriction the other way, which they had done the day before, but which they hadn't done on that dive. Having been through that area, I really don't understand how that part of the accident occurred without *someone* going 'hey, hang on, this ain't right'.

We hear a lot about team on these boards. There may be no "I" in "TEAM" but there is definitely an "I" in "LIVE."

Well, that's why I am going to navigate in a cave, and when something like that happens when the entire team is being stupid, I am going to speak up. That's probably the biggest team failure that we see over and over again, which is the whole team doing something stupid and nobody speaking up.

 

[lamont]

Well as you already know, I don't believe there is anything after death, so hence why my life is the most important thing to me. Once I'm dead I have no chance to do anything differently. I feel sorry for those that do not realise that their life is the most important thing they have.. but yea we can agree to disagree on that

Yeah, but everyone is gonna die sooner or later. At some point you've gotta check out.

Why not go down swinging trying to save a buddy? Beats dying slowing with Alzheimer's alone in some retirement home...

 

[DCBC]

What if you are in a team of two divers, your exit from a wreck or a cave was somehow delayed, your buddy runs out of gas, and you see that your SPG shows only enough gas, (in your estimation) to get one diver out?

What would you do?

I'd have to say that I don't think that I'd let this situation occur in the first place (as you described it). I'm not saying that other things could happen that would put me into a similar situation, but not inattentiveness, or poor planning. If you did a deep dive with me, the degree of planning I do would likely tick you off. There's no such thing as a carefree decompression dive as far as I'm concerned.

I have however exited a deep wreck and had to deal with 2 OOA divers, which caused me to start to remove my scuba and prepare for an free ascent to the stage cylinders. When it comes right down to it, I know it's impossible for me to leave a buddy without gas. I'd have to say that I'd give my buddy the gear and try for the stage. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't. Tough question Trace.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It's not a hard decision for me.

I'm going to try to save my buddy.

I'd rather die trying than live with the aftermath of not trying.

I can think of way worse ways to go ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)