"What if ..?"

[Trace Malinowski]

I had some respect for you, Trace, but your post describing how to kill your buddy just dissolved that respect.

Doc,

I'm sorry you feel that way. In none of my posts did I say that I would save my buddy. In none of my posts did I say that I would kill my buddy. I stated, as a matter-of-fact, that a double drowning in an OOG situation is a needless loss of two lives. I stated what lifeguards are taught. I answered Andy's question about an ethical dilemma when one has a duty to act. Lamont's post provided me with some food for thought because we don't train to kill our buddies no more than we train to fight sharks. When we learn to punch, we assume we'll be hitting a person and not a shark. When we do a valve drill, we are assuming we are learning to shut off our gas if we have a post failure.

We do have a failure in this hypothetical situation. We have a failure of a team to have enough gas for both divers to exit a cave or wreck.

In the real world, I have struggled to keep a friend from making a rapid ascent in a panic. Anyone who has ever dealt with panicked victim fighting you in the water in real-life knows it is a difficult rescue. Underwater, it is more dramatic than Sea Hunt. In the real world, I have felt a myriad of emotions trying to get a friend to GO HOME as he wouldn't move and had the gold line in a death grip. In the real world, I have placed myself in danger making several in-water rescues. In the real world, I have never run from someone who needed help, never lost a student, lost a teammate, or lost a victim. I ended up chasing two muggers in NYC who robbed a girl outside my surgeon's office. She was crying and yelling for help. I'm not a hero. I'm just a guy who believes in doing what is right when it is right.

In the real world, I received a phone call telling me I lost my GUE-F buddy and his best friend to a cenote in Mexico ... and was I still coming to the Christmas party? Mike, an attorney, had just gotten married to a beautiful oncologist. He was 100% serious in Fundies. Kent, a dentist, was told that he wasn't a team player, yet once the team had "screwed the pooch" he had two opportunities to be selfish and live.

AJ's post in the DIR SPG thread got me thinking a lot about that last 250 feet.

We hear a lot about team on these boards. There may be no "I" in "TEAM" but there is definitely an "I" in "LIVE."

 

[Doc Harry]

Fine. Then don't dive with a buddy, or if you do, let him know that you're gonna leave him for dead if something goes wrong.

Simple.

I find myself in situations ("Insta-Buddy") where I know that I am not going to do anything to save the guy if something goes wrong. So I go solo instead and let him buddy up with someone else.

Simple.

Doc,

I'm sorry you feel that way. In none of my posts did I say that I would save my buddy. In none of my posts did I say that I would kill my buddy. I stated, as a matter-of-fact, that a double drowning in an OOG situation is a needless loss of two lives. I stated what lifeguards are taught. I answered Andy's question about an ethical dilemma when one has a duty to act. Lamont's post provided me with some food for thought because we don't train to kill our buddies no more than we train to fight sharks. When we learn to punch, we assume we'll be hitting a person and not a shark. When we do a valve drill, we are assuming we are learning to shut off our gas if we have a post failure.

We do have a failure in this hypothetical situation. We have a failure of a team to have enough gas for both divers to exit a cave or wreck.

In the real world, I have struggled to keep a friend from making a rapid ascent in a panic. Anyone who has ever dealt with panicked victim fighting you in the water in real-life knows it is a difficult rescue. Underwater, it is more dramatic than Sea Hunt. In the real world, I have felt a myriad of emotions trying to get a friend to GO HOME as he wouldn't move and had the gold line in a death grip. In the real world, I have placed myself in danger making several in-water rescues. In the real world, I have never run from someone who needed help, never lost a student, lost a teammate, or lost a victim. I ended up chasing two muggers in NYC who robbed a girl outside my surgeon's office. She was crying and yelling for help. I'm not a hero. I'm just a guy who believes in doing what is right when it is right.

In the real world, I received a phone call telling me I lost my GUE-F buddy and his best friend to a cenote in Mexico ... and was I still coming to the Christmas party? Mike, an attorney, had just gotten married to a beautiful oncologist. He was 100% serious in Fundies. Kent, a dentist, was told that he wasn't a team player, yet once the team had "screwed the pooch" he had two opportunities to be selfish and live.

AJ's post in the DIR SPG thread got me thinking a lot about that last 250 feet.

We hear a lot about team on these boards. There may be no "I" in "TEAM" but there is definitely an "I" in "LIVE."

 

[Sas]

Fine. Then don't dive with a buddy, or if you do, let him know that you're gonna leave him for dead if something goes wrong.

I don't think anybody here is talking about running at the first sign of any trouble, which seems to be what you are implying people are saying here. Things would have to be very very dire for me to consider leaving my buddy.

You say 'simple' but it isn't really. There aren't many situations where things are black and white as to whether you can both survive. But when they are black and white I'm going to save myself every time. Have you ever experienced trying to help a drowning person? I have, and when you experience that you realise how easily you can die along with them and how you really have to protect yourself.

I find myself in situations ("Insta-Buddy") where I know that I am not going to do anything to save the guy if something goes wrong. So I go solo instead and let him buddy up with someone else.

I have yet to encounter a buddy that I wouldn't do anything to save, even instabuddies. If it was black and white decision about something where only one of us could survive, I would leave them behind. But as it is I have chased buddies into wrecks when I was brand new and had no idea how to enter a wreck, shared air with them, stayed beyond my gas reserves trying to get narced people to surface, chased some people to the surface who were corking trying to slow them down. I've gone a fair way to help some buddies already, and some occasions I feel I put myself into danger doing so but I wouldn't make a conscious decision to die for one.

 

[Doc Harry]

Yes, I have swam out through the waves and pulled drowning people from the surf.

I spent 10 years in the military and know all too well what it means to go through thick and thin with a buddy.

When I buddy with someone, I am their buddy and will stay by their side no matter what, just as I would expect them to do for me.

When I am not willing to be a good buddy, then I go solo.

It is all very simple.

 

[Sas]

So you think it is preferable for both of you to die then? Rather than one get out? Or would you give your buddy your gas and stay behind?

 

[Walter]

The right choice is to leave your buddy. There is absolutely no question about that. I do not believe I could make that choice. I would have to try. Yes, I'll probably die. I'm going to die anyway, I just don't know when. I'd rather live 10 more minutes trying to save a friend than 40 more years wondering if I could have saved them. I don't fault anyone who makes the other choice.

Yes Bill, I know some folks have faced those choices and still are unsure, but others have and are fairly certain. No one can be 100% sure.

Sas, I know you don't want to die. I don't either. No healthy person does. That doesn't change the fact that you and I will both eventually die. The most we can do is postpone it. I'm sorry you believe nothing is more important than your life.

RJP, I know and I accept this.

Sas, a world in which there was no need for a military would be a wonderful thing. Until we live in such a world, I'm glad we have one.

 

[Sas]

The right choice is to leave your buddy. There is absolutely no question about that. I do not believe I could make that choice. I would have to try. Yes, I'll probably die. I'm going to die anyway, I just don't know when. I'd rather live 10 more minutes trying to save a friend than 40 more years wondering if I could have saved them. I don't fault anyone who makes the other choice.

I think if you're dead then you'll never know if you would be able to live with leaving your friend behind. Therapy can fix most things. I'm not trying to be flippant at all, but that's what I think.

Sas, I know you don't want to die. I don't either. No healthy person does. That doesn't change the fact that you and I will both eventually die. The most we can do is postpone it. I'm sorry you believe nothing is more important than your life.

Well as you already know, I don't believe there is anything after death, so hence why my life is the most important thing to me. Once I'm dead I have no chance to do anything differently. I feel sorry for those that do not realise that their life is the most important thing they have.. but yea we can agree to disagree on that

Sas, a world in which there was no need for a military would be a wonderful thing. Until we live in such a world, I'm glad we have one.

I agree. But I guess my point was that people often talk about the amazingly brave things that people do in the military. I don't get impressed by this - I find it sad that such brave people are wasted in the military.

 

[RJP]

I don't need your respect, I know you mean well but I find such comments patronising.

I can respect that.

 

[RJP]

RJP, I know and I accept this.

Wasn't saying I wouldn't do the same as you. Just pointing out that - whichever way you go - the decision would consume your thoughts for the rest of your life.

 

[Sas]

I can respect that.

:whack:

Wasn't saying I wouldn't do the same as you. Just pointing out that - whichever way you go - the decision would consume your thoughts for the rest of your life.

Yea it would most definitely.