"What if ..?"

[carolrose]

I have been on a cave dive with an unfamiliar buddy, and judging from our ending pressures, I am fairly certain that he violated thirds on the dive. I turned the dive on gas at thirds plus 200, but yet when the dive ended I had several hundred psi more gas than he did. Now while it's feasible that he just hoovered on the way out for some reason, it seems more likely to me that he simply didn't bother saving my 1/3 of gas.

In that case, if there had been a catastrophic gas loss at maximum penetration, the possibility of not having enough gas to safely exit both of us is pretty real. While I'd love to think that I care for my fellow man and all that kumbaya stuff, should I really drown to attempt to save someone who chose not to reserve enough gas to save me if the situation was reversed?

It's a tough call, and would be a tougher call to swim away knowing that the next person to see my buddy would be the one dragging his body out, but living with the aftermath is preferable to dying pointlessly.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

what if my aunt had balls...

She'd be my uncle silly

 

[AndyNZ]

If not, Option Number 2: get rid of him. Turn it off and keep it off and then hang on to my back-up regulator with everything that I have and hold dear if attacked for gas.

Whilst I am general in favour of most neo-Darwinist views.... does this not leave you in an ethical dilemma if this situation arises during a cave course that you are teaching, Trace?

Choices like those, are well beyond most emergency situations and the decision you make will result in at least one death, without any doubt. I don't think I could sacrifice my life for someone else and this doesn't just relate to diving.

If one agrees with Richard Dawkins, you almost have no choice - altruism is in itself a destructive tendency... if your forbears were pre-disposed to altruism, they probably would have died out and hence not passed on their genes to make you.

Interestingly, I do wonder how much this choice is context specific - a very specific example, my better half is pregnant with our first child... would sacrificing myself to save her (and "splodge") be altruism, or is in fact a means by which I'd be encouraging the survival of my genes?

 

[DaleC]

If one agrees with Richard Dawkins, you almost have no choice - altruism is in itself a destructive tendency... if your forbears were pre-disposed to altruism, they probably would have died out and hence not passed on their genes to make you.

Imagine if all those guys on the beaches of Normandy thought that way...

While we in the diving community may think this sort of dilemna is for the most part theoretical, people people in the military face these choices quite often.

 

[Sas]

And that is why I'd never join the military.

 

[DaleC]

I can respect that.

 

[drbill]

Perhaps you don't. On the other hand, that doesn't mean others haven't been in situations where they've had to make a choice of leaving someone to die or facing what they believed was probable death. Those folks very likely have an excellent idea of what they would do. I would imagine more people on this board have faced those situations than you might guess.

Walter, certainly a number of us have faced such situations and know how we reacted in them. Although I don't do wreck or cave penetrations, I have had incidents with buddies where there was a chance of either getting bent or one of us not making it. Fortunately in the few cases I have faced in my nearly 50 years of diving, we both made it.

Knowing how I responded under those circumstances does not ensure that I know how I would respond in the next one (if there is a next one). However, cool headed responses that result in survival probably increase the chance of it happening again.

However, as I age, I realize I am no longer as capable at effecting the proper outcome as I was in my younger days... I'm not as strong physically, my mind probably isn't as quick. Fortunastely I still have my sex appeal.

 

[Sas]

I can respect that.

I don't need your respect, I know you mean well but I find such comments patronising. The military is unnecessary as is people having to make such decisions as discussed here due to the fact they are in the military. There is no need for a military if only the world didn't go all prisoner's dilemma on things. It's an incredible waste of people's time (like my sister, I don't know where she has been for the last six months, nor how safe it is there), their lives and also resources.

 

[lamont]

Whilst I am general in favour of most neo-Darwinist views.... does this not leave you in an ethical dilemma if this situation arises during a cave course that you are teaching, Trace?

If one agrees with Richard Dawkins, you almost have no choice - altruism is in itself a destructive tendency... if your forbears were pre-disposed to altruism, they probably would have died out and hence not passed on their genes to make you.

Interestingly, I do wonder how much this choice is context specific - a very specific example, my better half is pregnant with our first child... would sacrificing myself to save her (and "splodge") be altruism, or is in fact a means by which I'd be encouraging the survival of my genes?

Dawkins answered in this in _The Selfish Gene_ and now appears to have forgotten his own answer from what I've read lately.

The forces of selection happen at the genetic level -- not at the either the species/group or individual organism levels -- so a 'runt gene' in a litter propagates itself by basically killing the runt of the litter (an act of fairly massive altruism) to better propagate the copies of itself in the other littermates when there's competition between the litter to survive. Similarly, you dying to save your offspring helps to propagate your genes, so its entirely genetically rational for you to be altruistic.

And if a gene that produces altruism towards the species manages to propagate copies of itself in other individuals, it could also be selected for.

 

[lamont]

But, like a surfer who was attacked by a shark said, no matter what the statistics say, when it is happening to you, it is real.

But do most surfers train and practice to deal with shark attacks? Or do they just accept the odds, and if they think about it at all, just figure that if it does happen they'll try to go for the eyes or the gills and go down swinging as best they can?

I've thought out what to do in some bad situations, but I'd rather focus on what it would take to communicate to the team and get everyone out alive and getting really hammered on margaritas later that night