"What if ..?"

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It is interesting to me that many divers state matter of factly that they would cut their losses and head for the door. Not a judgement but I would like to tote out this thread the next time individual redundancy vs the buddy system is discussed.

Since we're talkin' about diving in overheads here, Dale, I'm not sure it's really relevent to the "buddy system" model touted for recreational diving. In this case, a direct ascent isn't possible. And that changes a great many things with respect to how you think about the dive.

FWIW - everybody I know who goes into a cave DOES carry individual redundancy. They can still run out of gas if they're not careful.

WRT Trace's potential scenarios, I'm very new at cave diving ... but one thing I did experience last November that might apply is running into a complete silt-out on your way out of the cave. Granted, if you do everything the way you were trained it shouldn't be a problem ... but sometimes things don't happen the way they should. I imagine having to tie off and search for the line might slow you down a bit ... especially if it happens in a fairly large room or a confluence of two or more tunnels.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Regardless of why a team of divers may face the possibility of running out of gas and suffering a double fatality during an exit, divers have been there, and as rjack pointed out, they will be there again. Some of these same divers sat at their home PC's, notebook computers, Blackberry's, whatever, and read posts in SB, TDS, CDF, RBW, and other message boards and "Monday-morning quarterbacked" just like we do here. The only difference between us and them is that we are still alive and haven't faced the situations that claimed their lives.

No one is too good, too careful, too well-trained, too DIR, too experienced, too whatever not to face the situation of running out of gas. If you think you are, you are mistaken, but you will probably spend your life diving without incident anyway. Such situations are rare.

But, like a surfer who was attacked by a shark said, no matter what the statistics say, when it is happening to you, it is real.

If the improbable becomes your reality, as the donor, you are the lifeguard. In any situation when a buddy turns to you for help, you become the lifeguard. As a lifeguard, I was taught not to die for my victim. As a lifeguard instructor, I teach lifeguards not to die for their victims. A drowning is tragic. A double drowning is twice the tragedy and unnecessary.

Since my technical training began with GUE, I always placed a heavy emphasis on team. During my NACD instruction, I was introduced to possible scenarios involving the decision to leave a buddy:

1. Stuck diver
2. Frozen (due to stress) diver
3. Panicked diver on long hose
4. Divers sharing gas and donor doesn't have enough to exit both safely

I've actually faced the second scenario in real-life in Ginnie Springs. An inexperienced teammate became disoriented during the exit upon reaching the 90° bend in the gold line at the jump that will go to the Bone Room. Despite the gold line, the double arrows pointing out, and the flow, he second-guessed his directional awareness, and reached a state of fear that caused him to freeze solid. I established touch contact and gave him the signal to "Go!" several times, each time more forcefully, but he stayed put. I got in front of him and tried to get him to follow me. He snapped out of it and did. He still cave dives. He doesn't know what happened that night.

While an impossibly stuck diver might also be rare, most of us know about the death that occurred in the dry cave recently when the spelunker became stuck upside down for days. Even a rescue team couldn't free him in time. Underwater, we normally don't have days.

When it comes to gas sharing exits, the donor's life is also at high-risk. If the OOG diver goes into a panicked mode, you may need to fight off the diver and either establish control or get rid of the diver and exit. I dealt with a panicked diver who was low on gas on the Spiegel Grove. He was out of shape, hoovered his gas, and the panic came during the gas switch. I made the mistake of handing him his reg first before turning it on. I knew better, but in the battle to get him squared away, I handed him his reg and he breathed it & bolted. I managed to catch him and get him calmed and squared away. The battle was right out of my old school Red Cross Advanced Lifesaving class with a tough as nails instructor, but at 70 feet underwater. Fortunately, that ended okay.

Both a panicked diver on a long hose, and the scenario with which I started the thread, a diver on a long hose where there isn't enough gas to exit both team members gives the donor two options:

1. Ride it out and manage the situation as best as you can
2. Get rid of your buddy

In the first resolution, you may get lucky. You may be able to use some of the tactics posted here such as skip-breathing and staying as high as you can, also doing your best to slow down and be smooth, deliberate and efficient. You may find a way to live and you may not. If the diver is panicked, I was taught to shut off my right post and turn it back on in hopes that a panicked diver will snap out of it.

If not, Option Number 2: get rid of him. Turn it off and keep it off and then hang on to my back-up regulator with everything that I have and hold dear if attacked for gas. If you are exiting and see that you don't have enough gas, you can do the same.

A thinking teammate is an asset.
A panicked teammate is a threat.
A teammate using precious gas is a risk.
A single diver emerging from a wreck or a cave is better than two who do not.

For the community of divers, one survivor who could live to tell the story of an event is a much better ambassador for safety and the lessons learned than one hundred divers speculating over the event.
 
If you're venturing into such an environment with a buddy and intend to leave your buddy in an emergency, then you have no business being in that environment with a buddy.

I mean, the point of having a buddy is to support each other.

IF AS A BUDDY YOU ARE GOING TO TURN TAIL AND RUN WHEN THE **** HITS THE FAN, THEN YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING SOMEONE'S BUDDY.

Instead, go by yourself.

I agree in most emergencies you have to stick by your buddy no matter what but the example given was basically you had these choices:
1. you take the gas and get out alive, your buddy dies
2. you give the gas to your buddy, you die
OR
3. you both share gas, you both die

Choices like those, are well beyond most emergency situations and the decision you make will result in at least one death, without any doubt. I don't think I could sacrifice my life for someone else and this doesn't just relate to diving.
 
What if you are in a team of two divers, your exit from a wreck or a cave was somehow delayed, your buddy runs out of gas, and you see that your SPG shows only enough gas, (in your estimation) to get one diver out?

What would you do?

I guess I will officially evade the question.
This situation will never enter my life.
#1
I will not dive in a cave, a cavern yes, a cave no.
I gotta see daylight.
#2
I do not like getting very deep into a wreck.
See 2nd half of above answer.
#3
I dive giant freaking tanks.
It is better to be looking at it, instead of looking for it.
I can do a 1 mile strut down the beach after a beach dive with relative ease carrying
130+ cf tanks.
My extra air is not just for me.
I am not a minimalist.
I am a monster at making sure I have whatever I need to bring you home.

Failure is NOT an option.

"You have to go out, but you don't have to come back."
(Old Version)
"Only go when everyone can come back alive".
(New Version)

"Semper Paratus"
(Always Ready)"

Chug
Never lost a buddy, never will.
 
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I think one could add:

c. Share gas and hope for the best.

I don't know what I would do. I think it might depend on how close I was to the diver, how much responsability I felt for them on the dive and whether the lack of gas was from an honest mistake or blatent disregard.
I have some dive buddies that I make a firm commitment to on a dive and other "codivers" (who also solo routinely) with whom many dives are same ocean affairs (by mutual agreement). In the latter case there is an assumption that we ultimately take personal responsability for our own outcomes.


It is interesting to me that many divers state matter of factly that they would cut their losses and head for the door. Not a judgement but I would like to tote out this thread the next time individual redundancy vs the buddy system is discussed.

The post you refer to here was based on previous banter back and forth concerning the thread taking breaks from the original post. That had already been covered by others but the OP asked if there was only enough gas for ONE what would YOU do. It has been a good thread for sure.
 
What if you are in a team of two divers, your exit from a wreck or a cave was somehow delayed, your buddy runs out of gas, and you see that your SPG shows only enough gas, (in your estimation) to get one diver out?

What would you do?

Wake up and say "Thank God, it was only a bad dream."

:eyebrow:
 
Well, topics like this go a bit beyond the buddy system so I'm not sure any point you would raise would be relevant.

I wasn't raising any points. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. I just think it is an interesting scenario to think about when considering the buddy system. Some people think their buddy will be there no matter what and apparently that is not always the case. It may just impress some divers to not be sloppy with the thought that "someone" will always bail them out. Take it any way one wants. It's not a criticism.

The post you refer to here was based on previous banter back and forth concerning the thread taking breaks from the original post. That had already been covered by others but the OP asked if there was only enough gas for ONE what would YOU do. It has been a good thread for sure.

Yep, I just saw the third possability. I suppose, there being only enough air for one to exit successfully some people might make the choice to share and risk not exiting successfully.
 
Trace, I do not envy you the experience of a frozen diver in a cave. I have dealt with a frozen diver in OW, and I would seriously rather not do it again.

You know, in a lot of threads, people are accused of being elitist or otherwise prejudiced in making the decisions they do regarding the people with whom they will do a given dive. In recreational, open water diving, you can possibly make the argument that a well trained diver with good skills and adequate reserves should be able to complete the dive, regardless of the behavior, health, or skills of the buddy. In an overhead, you cannot make that argument. There ARE things that a buddy can do deep in a cave that could kill them or me or both of us. Therefore, it is my fervent hope to winnow out the people who would put us at that much risk, BEFORE I enter an overhead environment with them. This butts up against my strong desire to mentor where possible, and offer myself as a solid companion for people who are just starting -- but honestly, I do believe that the GUE Fundies/ Cave 1 sequence weeds out a lot of people who are temperamentally not fit to do this kind of diving.

And those of you who know me will immediately bring up the fact that I didn't pass Cave 2. And that's valid. I DO have some situational awareness issues that are not as sharp as they ought to be. The people I'm doing Full Cave dives with know this about me, and can make their risk assessments based on that. And if someone were to say to me, "No, I don't want to do this dive with you because you haven't passed this level of evaluation," I'd be crestfallen but not resentful.

The stakes go up as the diving gets more complicated. There is no way around that, and your selection of partners for such dives can really mean your survival or not. Although you cannot ever know how you, or anyone else will react in a true, life-threatening emergency, you can accumulate the data you can to estimate that. (For example, I function EXTREMELY well in life-threatening emergencies . . . as long as they involve people I don't know. :) )
 

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