"What if ..?"

[rjack321]

It was not a question of how could you save the both of you, although it has drifted into that.
It's about having no options....there is no way you can save both...there isn't enough air. Who would you save"? Yourself? Or your buddy...or could you bail on your buddy.

The OOA buddy cannot be saved unless he drags your lifeless body & tanks out with him.

That said, somebody's been watching too many Sea Hunt reruns. This game is stupid. Divers in this circumstance (and people have definately been in it and will again) don't check their SPG so they never realize they don't have enough gas. They are too busy focused on the task at hand (whatever delayed them) and the gas sharing to bother to check. By the time they do check (if ever) they are both gonna drown.

For those proposing to close an isolator what would you do when you drowning buddy starts clawing your eyes out and ripping your backup out of your mouth? Knife him Sea Hunt style?

 

[AndyNZ]

What if you are in a team of two divers, your exit from a wreck or a cave was somehow delayed, your buddy runs out of gas, and you see that your SPG shows only enough gas, (in your estimation) to get one diver out?

What would you do?

As an aside, an interesting read is "Touching the Void" by Joe Tasker.

It describes a climbing expedition, during which Joe really smashes up his knee big time, in a remote area in South America.

Simon, his climbing buddy, ends up trying to save him - despite the obvious challenges and risk to himself. Ultimately, whilst lowering Joe off the mountain, Simon ends up with the choice - cut the rope and save himself, or don't cut it and potentially both die. It's a good book, and a fantastic story.

Simon got a lot of grief about this when the story came out, but I think most climbers would have cut the rope - I know I would.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

How likely is this to happen if you don't screw the pooch in multiple other ways?

The double-fatality in Calimba is the one example I can think of, and there was so much wrong with that dive, that its a good example in how to never get into this situation...

Sheck did have an experience in _CM2M_ where he nearly died in a double fatality while obeying all the rules. They were diving thirds under the 1/3 stage + 1/3 backgas rule, but at max pen his buddy had a catastrophic gas loss problem and sheck ran out of backgas about 50 feet before the stage (his buddy had a few scrapes of gas left and went back on his own supply). That is one reason why diving stages to 1/2 and reserving backgas puts you in a better situation when you turn, since everyone should have 3x the backgas penetration gas in backgas, not just 2x. Teams of three help even more.

lamont,

So much went wrong on that Calimba dive, yet two divers emerged alive. That could have been a quadruple fatality, or two double fatalities, depending upon how you look at it. Of the two who died 250 feet from the exit, one of those could have made it.

The OOA buddy cannot be saved unless he drags your lifeless body & tanks out with him.

That said, somebody's been watching too many Sea Hunt reruns. This game is stupid. Divers in this circumstance (and people have definately been in it and will again) don't check their SPG so they never realize they don't have enough gas. They are too busy focused on the task at hand (whatever delayed them) and the gas sharing to bother to check. By the time they do check (if ever) they are both gonna drown.

For those proposing to close an isolator what would you do when you drowning buddy starts clawing your eyes out and ripping your backup out of your mouth? Knife him Sea Hunt style?

rjack,

I'm really surprised that you would take this thread to be "a stupid game" since you normally are very insightful in your posts. As you just said, "... people have definitely been in it and will again ..."

Good gas management, solid planning, training, and experience will not make any diver bullet-proof. Things happen and these things may not be out of a Sea Hunt episode.

While a collapse may be out of a Sea Hunt episode, I know a guy who dug out of one. He was being reported lost by two divers as he emerged. A fairly common reason for a delay is when a team member cannot equalize while descending when diving a saw-tooth profile cave. While this has never created a fatality, it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that a diver under time pressure could force a descent and further delay an exit due to a rupture. This may be a Sea Hunt disaster as well.

What isn't out of Sea Hunt is that many divers are diving less due to the economy and these same divers have the scooters, rebreathers, and the knowledge to go farther than many cave divers in the past. With more divers in caves, divers ahead of a team or behind a team could be responsible for creating problems that may cause delays.

Regardless of why a team found themselves facing a double fatality, most of the time, one diver from that situation could live if he or she chose.

I intended the thread to explore that decision.

If you don't find value in this thread, fair enough.

 

[Kern]

its a hard 1 but ever since aliens tried to steal my back gas & kidnap my buddy I dont go into the water unprepared but its hard to know what i'd do in this situation like common sense tells me to run for it but it would be hard to leave your buddy behind which means your gona die so save some time & just panic & drown maybe or I could adopt some children from africa then kill my buddy when he attacks me for my gas & leave with a clear conscience.

Ya goto watch out for those pesky mermaids too.

 

[DaleC]

If all of the answers were true to form I would agree. The true correct answers for this thread would be:

a. I would save myself or
b. I would give my buddy my gas, even though my buddy has used all of theirs, and allow my buddy to live thus sacrificing myself.

When we step in an offer more than a or b we open ourselves up to where the threads move to.

I think one could add:

c. Share gas and hope for the best.

I don't know what I would do. I think it might depend on how close I was to the diver, how much responsability I felt for them on the dive and whether the lack of gas was from an honest mistake or blatent disregard.
I have some dive buddies that I make a firm commitment to on a dive and other "codivers" (who also solo routinely) with whom many dives are same ocean affairs (by mutual agreement). In the latter case there is an assumption that we ultimately take personal responsability for our own outcomes.


It is interesting to me that many divers state matter of factly that they would cut their losses and head for the door. Not a judgement but I would like to tote out this thread the next time individual redundancy vs the buddy system is discussed.

 

[Sas]

It is interesting to me that many divers state matter of factly that they would cut their losses and head for the door. Not a judgement but I would like to tote out this thread the next time individual redundancy vs the buddy system is discussed.

Well, topics like this go a bit beyond the buddy system so I'm not sure any point you would raise would be relevant. They are about complete and utter cluster f***s. The buddy system is about keeping enough in reserve for your buddy, if you don't do that, well it's not really how most people see the buddy system...

I was thinking more about this and what I would do if I was the buddy that didn't have the gas. I'd probably try to steal it off my buddy if I could. It is a horrible thing to think about that but I *really* *really* don't want to die and would do whatever it took to get out of there alive. Then again I have had to share my air three times and at the time the thought never even crossed my mind to check that I had enough for both of us when I was handing over a reg. I was too busy making sure they had air and were comfortable. I mean the odds were unlikely that I wouldn't have enough as I would have called the dive then but in the moment I never even thought about it.

 

[battles2a5]

This is a hypothetical that every buddy group should discuss but should never find themselves in. The ONLY situation where I can ever imagine this happening would be that one of us got in trouble, the other waited as long as they possibly could (or longer) to get the other out, and we are making the mad dash to get out together as a team. So in this situation, I would stick it out with the buddy that stuck it out with me (or vice versa). There is a small group of people that I would do this for, but I can't imagine living with their death on my conscience if there were anything I could have done to prevent it. I would rather be bent like a pretzel with a bent buddy than have to wake up with that on my conscience every day of my life.

 

[TSandM]

I have obsessively read everything I can get my hands on about cave diving deaths. I've read all the IUCRR reports, and the stories in the back of Steve Gerrard's book, and everything on TDS and the Cave Diving forum.

I know of one death that was due to a delay caused by something which was not foreseeable by the divers involved, and that's Parker Turner's. I am content not to fret unduly about such a circumstance happening to me.

On the other hand, there are plenty of fatalities related to getting lost and being delayed by that. That's why I run a guideline everywhere (including into Ginnie) and why I believe in the GUE procedure of having every diver on the team mark every intersection.

I think Trace's question is one we should all quietly ponder in the privacy of our own thoughts. Doing so, I believe, will make us come away even more determined never to be found in that situation, and will make us think about what we need to do to ensure that it never happens.

 

[LiteHedded]

I have obsessively read everything I can get my hands on about cave diving deaths. I've read all the IUCRR reports, and the stories in the back of Steve Gerrard's book, and everything on TDS and the Cave Diving forum.

I know of one death that was due to a delay caused by something which was not foreseeable by the divers involved, and that's Parker Turner's. I am content not to fret unduly about such a circumstance happening to me.

On the other hand, there are plenty of fatalities related to getting lost and being delayed by that. That's why I run a guideline everywhere (including into Ginnie) and why I believe in the GUE procedure of having every diver on the team mark every intersection.

I think Trace's question is one we should all quietly ponder in the privacy of our own thoughts. Doing so, I believe, will make us come away even more determined never to be found in that situation, and will make us think about what we need to do to ensure that it never happens.

only one death. but plenty of other close calls. I just try not to think about it

 

[Doc Harry]

If you're venturing into such an environment with a buddy and intend to leave your buddy in an emergency, then you have no business being in that environment with a buddy.

I mean, the point of having a buddy is to support each other.

IF AS A BUDDY YOU ARE GOING TO TURN TAIL AND RUN WHEN THE **** HITS THE FAN, THEN YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING SOMEONE'S BUDDY.

Instead, go by yourself.