"What if ..?"

[Trace Malinowski]

Note that I was very careful to specify T2/C2 instructors, and i should have qualified it further to the existing list of instructors... I went through the list, and while I haven't met all of them, I think they all pass rule #1 on the basis of reputation... Bob just barely, of course...

Reputation, yes.

I'm just saying ... assess all divers including T2/C2 instructors against Rule #1. Remember, some of these guys, GI3 said to me personally, "Together they can't make one good moron."

 

[DCBC]

...most of our society seems to be infected with an irrational fear of death and inability to accept it as a natural process -- and it doesn't really seem to differ between atheists/agnostics and religious people.

1. We all die
2. We usually don't have a choice when that will be.
3. Worrying about it wont change anything.
4. What you believe wont change the fact that you will physically die.
5. We each have to deal with it in our own way and in our own time.
6. I believe in the G word, so I'm not worried, but that's me.

Lets party!

arty:arty:arty:arty:arty:arty:arty:

 

[Sas]

Interesting. How does that mesh with:

and

?

At the time I wrote them I was not considering my partner, but people like dive buddies. I should have considered that. I find the thought of his death about as painful as my own but I am still not sure I would die for him. Other people, I highly doubt I would (if I was rational) but I honestly don't know for him.

I don't mean to be critical,just curious.Why are you so afraid to die if you don't believe in an after life?There will be nothing,hence nothing to be scared of.
I'm a non believer too and I'm afraid of the pain often involved in the process of dieying but not of the dieying itself.I will simply cease to exist.

I think each time I think about the fact of my consciousness not being around, my brain kind of melts down a bit at the thought. It's kind of hard to explain but basically just the thought of nothingness is frightening.

I'm in the same ontological/epistomological boat as Sas, but being 38 instead of 24, I've had 14 more years and had a best friend die and had to try to wrap my head around the whole problem.

At some point you just realize that everything naturally has to have an end, and so do you, and you get acceptance of that fact. Going through that is probably why I can do cave diving today and not be freaking out over all the possible consequences on the dive. When I was younger it was a much bigger deal to think about that future, but now its more an issue of trying to figure out why I'm doing what I'm doing with my life in the present... Its not hell at all, once you dig through it...

And, actually given that we're a supposedly christian/religious nation believing in a heavenly afterlife, we sure do fear death a whole lot. Having at least knocked mine back a lot, most of our society seems to be infected with an irrational fear of death and inability to accept it as a natural process -- and it doesn't really seem to differ between atheists/agnostics and religious people.

Well I don't worry about death during day to day activities at all really, I just repress the thought. For example, I was in a car accident a few years ago - I ran into the back of a truck and the tray came through my windscreen and it was close to slicing though my head/neck. I never thought about how I could have easily died if I'd been going just a fraction faster even though the actual moment of crashing went very slow. All I could think about was that I damaged my boyfriend's car and he'd be pissed. And when diving I just don't really worry about dying, I just don't think about it.

I hope I get over it eventually though as it is inevitable.

 

[DaleC]

I was thinking about this at school today and I think, when I was younger, I very closely defined who I was with what I did. To me some of the things I was doing were worth dying for. As I have grown older I associate who I am/what I do less closely and have deepened my social connections. As a result I "think" I am less willing to die for something but may be more inclined to do so for someone.

 

[mafiajoe]

I think each time I think about the fact of my consciousness not being around, my brain kind of melts down a bit at the thought. It's kind of hard to explain but basically just the thought of nothingness is frightening.

I see.It's just because you consider that nothingness as still "something".
Well,you'll have plenty of time to ponder on this

 

[Sas]

I see.It's just because you consider that nothingness as still "something".

That's probably part of it. That I can't fully imagine what it is like to not exist. I would imagine 15 years being raised in a very strict Christian family has warped my subconscious a bit too in that I was always taught that I could expect something after death, but now that I don't believe there is, it has meant a huge loss to me. (Believe me the benefits outweigh the negatives of this, but there definitely have been some downsides)

Well,you'll have plenty of time to ponder on this

I hope

 

[mafiajoe]

That's probably part of it. That I can't fully imagine what it is like to not exist. I would imagine 15 years being raised in a very strict Christian family has warped my subconscious a bit too in that I was always taught that I could expect something after death, but now that I don't believe there is, it has meant a huge loss to me. (Believe me the benefits outweigh the negatives of this, but there definitely have been some downsides)



I hope

Ehe,you're talking to a hard core atheist here


"It is not death, it is dying that alarms me."
Michel de Montaigne

 

[boulderjohn]

This thread seems to have three aspects: theological, practical, and ethical. I will start with the theological

I'm 24 years old. I've barely lived at all. I'm not going to check out early if I can help it at all.
...
I think if you believe in an afterlife you can't possibly contemplate what it is like to be in my position.

You think incorrectly. I've given the concept a great deal of thought. What is amazing is that you aren't paralyzed by fear. You know you will die someday. You believe you will cease to exist at that point. You know there's nothing you can do to stop it. That's the worst hell I can imagine.

If you've always believed there is something after death, then you cannot know what it is like for those who just cannot believe in an afterlife. The way it changes how you feel about death is huge, and you're right, it is hell (but a hell you can't understand unless you believe that everything about you will cease to exist at death)...

I'm in the same ontological/epistomological boat as Sas, but being 38 instead of 24, I've had 14 more years and had a best friend die and had to try to wrap my head around the whole problem.

At some point you just realize that everything naturally has to have an end, and so do you, and you get acceptance of that fact.

And, actually given that we're a supposedly christian/religious nation believing in a heavenly afterlife, we sure do fear death a whole lot. Having at least knocked mine back a lot, most of our society seems to be infected with an irrational fear of death and inability to accept it as a natural process -- and it doesn't really seem to differ between atheists/agnostics and religious people.

That's probably part of it. That I can't fully imagine what it is like to not exist. I would imagine 15 years being raised in a very strict Christian family has warped my subconscious a bit too in that I was always taught that I could expect something after death, but now that I don't believe there is, it has meant a huge loss to me. (Believe me the benefits outweigh the negatives of this, but there definitely have been some downsides)

Like Sas, I was raised in a strict Christian upbringing. I even considered the ministry. Oddly enough, it was my close study of religious concepts that led me to abandon those beliefs. I know well the fear she describes. I used to lie awake at night thinking about it.

I was so interested in those feelings that I made it a bit of a study, and I learned that there is a pattern that almost everyone goes through--religious or not. Lamont's fine post can be summarized by an old Albert King blues song: Everybody want to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die. John Donne, while dying, thought about this in one of his best meditations, in which he observed his fear that the doctor examining him was seeing signs of close death, when he should be greeting such signs with joy of an imminent afterlife.

My fears peaked at about age 35, roughly the same age at which Shakespeare penned his magnificent examination of the certainty of death, Hamlet. After that, like Walter and Lamont, those fears subsided to the point that they don't matter to me at all any more. I think that pattern is close to universal.

So I do know how someone with that belief system feels, and I don't think it is all that much different from what a person with another belief system feels.

I will blend this with my post on ethics.

 

[boulderjohn]

Many people blend ethics and religion, but there is no need to do so. In his autobiography, Benjamin Franklin talked about the fact that he donated money to religions in which he did not believe. What he said in effect was that religions have the benefit of getting people to behave ethically when they might not otherwise be inclined to do so.

Behaving ethically because it is the right thing to do is a far higher level of ethics than is doing so because of the threat/promise of a punishment/reward in the afterlife.

See Ethical Culture for more.

I thus choose to live ethically for its own sake. I will not leave a buddy alone to die because I do not see it as ethically the right thing to do. I will instead work to the end to see if we can find a solution together. We got into that mess as a team, and I intend to get us out of that mess as a team, or die trying.

 

[boulderjohn]

Now for the practical.

Several people have already gone this route without too much notice that I have seen.

Let's reverse the original question.

You are in an OOA situation, and you see that your buddy is going to abandon you to your death. Perhaps the isolator has been closed and you have reached the end of your share. Perhaps the long hose has been yanked from your mouth. Perhaps he or she has ignored your OOA signal and moved on.

What would you do?

Would you passively wave goodbye and prepare to die?

Or would you go after your buddy's air with all you've got, perhaps even be willing to kill the buddy who had jsut demonstrated a willingness to kill you?

So, back to the original question. If you have decided to leave your buddy to die, just how would you pull that off?