"What if ..?"

[Walter]

At the time I wrote them I was not considering my partner, but people like dive buddies. I should have considered that. I find the thought of his death about as painful as my own but I am still not sure I would die for him. Other people, I highly doubt I would (if I was rational) but I honestly don't know for him.

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

It's just because you consider that nothingness as still "something".

I'm not following this. Nothingness is not something. It is the concept of no longer existing that I would find frightening.

My fears peaked at about age 35, roughly the same age at which Shakespeare penned his magnificent examination of the certainty of death, Hamlet.

Totally unrelated to the discussion at hand, but no one knows when any of the Shakespeare plays (or any of his other works) were written or even who actually wrote them. William Shakspere spelled his name one way, we spell it another and the name that appeared on the works (Shake-speare) was spelled in a third way. Mark Anderson makes an excellent case they were written by the 17th Earl of Oxford, Edward de Vere. Fascinating reading regardless of what conclusion you draw.

would you go after your buddy's air with all you've got, perhaps even be willing to kill the buddy who had jsut demonstrated a willingness to kill you?

I disagree with your assumption that your buddy demonstrated a willingness to kill you. He demonstrated a willingness you let you finish killing yourself. It is not his actions that have killed you, but your own. He has refused to try to stop your unintentional suicide at risk to his own life. If you fight your buddy for air and it results in his death, you have killed him and probably yourself as well. I will kill to stop them from killing me. I will not kill to possibly save myself from my own actions. I would much rather die with a clean conscience than live with a guilty one.

 

[DaleC]

I curious how someone can be certain that there is nothing after physical death. I can understand being uncertain whether there is anything beyond but being certain requires as much "faith" as believing there is something.

It's like being atheist. The absence of humanly conceivable evidence does not neccisarily mean something greater does not exist. It just means we possibly cannot perceive of it in our present state. To me the most fact based position one can have currently is that of agnostic (I cannot say definatively either way).

When I was younger I may have considered myself atheist but that was because I had a preconceived notion of what "god" was supposed to be and when that failed to materialize I thought "god" did not exist. Later, I realised it was my notion that had be erroneous. YMMV.

Not trying to convert anyone btw, my faith does not have an evangelical component. Just some thoughts to ponder or not at ones own discretion.

 

[Walter]

You're 100% correct Dale, but folks disagree and some were down right rude about objecting to discussing the concept.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

So, back to the original question. If you have decided to leave your buddy to die, just how would you pull that off?

I would bet that it would be deceptively easy. Going into this thread, divers were educated about the fact that they had an option to shut off the gas of the OOG diver on the long hose. How many people reading this thread ever considered that their buddy might do that?

An OOG diver on a long hose is probably very concerned and aware that two divers are now depleting the remaining gas supply. In a second OOG, I think the primary assumption a diver would make is, "All gone."

In the double fatality of my friends in Mexico, they died in the gas sharing position reportedly without struggle. Other double fatalities have found buddies fairly separated. In a last ditch effort to survive, turning back toward the cave (toward the donor) and away from the exit probably isn't as appealing as trying to bolt toward the exit or through the ceiling. If the donor stopped and held his breath while signaling he is also out, how long do you think the OOG diver would watch his partner for breathing thinking he may be withholding gas?

 

[ScubaSteve]

This post makes the buddies death sound so premeditated. There is not a chance that I am sticking around to watch my buddy die just so I can play out a charade. If I am with them, they are getting my help. Again, I would rather know that I died trying to save two lives rather than live knowing I did nothing to save one life.

I do not think I want to meet the person that would want to watch their buddy die all the while lying to them about the air supply. Not a person I want to meet in life let alone the person I want to dive with. I would rather someone panic and shoot to the surface than watch my eyes as the life drained from me.

I would bet that it would be deceptively easy. Going into this thread, divers were educated about the fact that they had an option to shut off the gas of the OOG diver on the long hose. How many people reading this thread ever considered that their buddy might do that?

An OOG diver on a long hose is probably very concerned and aware that two divers are now depleting the remaining gas supply. In a second OOG, I think the primary assumption a diver would make is, "All gone."

In the double fatality of my friends in Mexico, they died in the gas sharing position reportedly without struggle. Other double fatalities have found buddies fairly separated. In a last ditch effort to survive, turning back toward the cave (toward the donor) and away from the exit probably isn't as appealing as trying to bolt toward the exit or through the ceiling. If the donor stopped and held his breath while signaling he is also out, how long do you think the OOG diver would watch his partner for breathing thinking he may be withholding gas?

 

[mdb]

I've been "mugged" by a buddy in an OOG situation @ about 70-80 feet off Pt. Loma in San Diego.

We were hunting for Abalone. It was in the "old days". I had a SPG my buddy had a J Valve tank.
No octo units on either rig.

His valve had been tripped somehow prior to the dive and he was OOG while I was looking under a rock and finding a nice Ab family. I felt the tug on my reg hose and looked around. My buddy grabbed my regulator and with wide eyes began deep inhales. As we had been taught, I took the hose in my right hand and waited for him to return the reg so I could take 2 breaths and we could begin our ascent. There was no way he was giving the reg back. He clamped down on the mouthpiece and kept breathing. I bailed out of my tank-we were wearing front mount BC's-and made a free ascent. A bit later my friend emerged in a sea of bubbles with my tank under his arm

My friend had a nice small boat. We were diving almost every weekend. We practiced buddy breathing many times. We had at least a hundred shared dives.

Those who say "This is what I will do", really should say; "This is what I think I would do." They will never really know until an actual event occurs.

Fear and panic can change things quite a bit.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

This post makes the buddies death sound so premeditated.

It is premeditated. A diver making such a decision would probably be thinking about it very carefully. No one would want to let a buddy die. But, people have done just that on several mountain climbs.

Teams of climbers have passed sick, injured or dying climbers in places like Everest because they knew, rationally, that they couldn't help.

I find the strength shown by otherwise compassionate people in such situations and the courage to live with it as admirable as those who are willing to die to save someone else. The person who knows that death is eminent isn't deluding himself with the hope and is being practical. The person who is willing to die is accepting a situation that is long on hope and short on practicality.

 

[mdb]

Well Trace at least we know where you stand.

No one knows "if they couldn't help."--There is always hope. Yesterday a woman was pulled from
the rubble in Haiti after 14 days. The government had called off search efforts days ago.

Some people will help, others, like yourself would not. A personal choice indeed.

 

[mafiajoe]

Nothingness is not something.

Exactly.Nothingness is just that....nothing.It's not even a void,that would be something,it's nothing at all.

It is the concept of no longer existing that I would find frightening.

I respect your view.Fortunately I don't find the concept of ceasing to exist and disappear frightening at all.I wasn't here before,I won't be here later.

 

[ScubaSteve]

To leave somone on the side of a mountain when you do not have to watch them die is one thing. To look them in the eye and watch as life drains from them and they convulse as they begin to drown (I am speculating as to what the drowning would look like because I am lucky enough to have never witnessed it) knowing that you could stop it, delay it, prevent it.....two very different things in my mind.

And I do agree with mdb that I believe that most people saying "I would definitely...." do not know that for sure. When I say it, I mean to say I, from the comfort and safety of my desk, believe I would...."