"What if ..?"

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As stated before Trace, I do not know what I would do. It is theory at this point.

I have been diving with a good friend and work colleague, who got narced on air and went of the line @ about 170 ft. and started swimming into the abyss. We followed him and managed to get him turned around and heading for the surface, some deco stops in between.

Your original post has prompted a good discussion, both philosophical and practical.

As I have mentioned several times: No one will really know what they would do until the moment
actually occurs. Giving it thought before hand certainly cannot hurt. Thanks for the OP.
 
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You could be thinking about not making it out for hundreds of feet watching your SPG dwindle. A diver could have just as much time as a climber.
However, whether the time is enough or not, at a certain point the diver has to make the decision. On the other hand, the climber has enough time to make his decision.
 
Let me change the question ...

Your buddy is panicking and fighting you because he is confused as to which way to swim during the OOG and thinks you are going the wrong way, you push him toward the exit, you scream "THAT WAY OUT!" into your regulator, you gesture, frantically, That way up!, but your buddy is battling you to swim into the cave ... what do you do?
If I'm 100% sure I'm in the right direction, I'll do whatever it takes not to allow him kill me. On the other hand, if I have doubts, I think I'll follow him (not sure though).
 
The opposite situation ...

Let me change the question ...

Your buddy is panicking and fighting you because he is confused as to which way to swim during the OOG and thinks you are going the wrong way, you push him toward the exit, you scream "THAT WAY OUT!" into your regulator, you gesture, frantically, That way up!, but your buddy is battling you to swim into the cave ... what do you do?

I think something similar happened a year or so ago on the Spiegel Grove, but without the OOG situation. In that case, the one who went the right way lived. (Please correct me if I am wrong, or else consider it hypothetical.)

I think I would do what I could to correct the situation (probably more of what you have already described) and then do all I could to get myself going in the right direction. That could include a fight, I guess.

I was asked a similar question by my instructor only hours ago--how long do you look for a lost buddy?
 
It is premeditated. A diver making such a decision would probably be thinking about it very carefully. No one would want to let a buddy die. But, people have done just that on several mountain climbs.

Teams of climbers have passed sick, injured or dying climbers in places like Everest because they knew, rationally, that they couldn't help.

Whilst true, the analogy is not quite 100%, Trace.

A lot of the issues, particularly with Everest, is from commercialism and lack of inter-team (as opposed to intra-team) spirit. And the fact that there are multiple teams on the mountain at the same time.

Above about 7000m, you are dying. It is impossible to live at those altitudes. I have no doubt that I would just walk past someone who was not on my team if they were having trouble because I have a finite amount of time before I start to exhibit signs of either pulmonary or cerebral oedema. I can say that with absolute certainty, as I've done it - not my team, not my problem.

At the same time, I've also extended how long I stay at those altitudes (above 7000m is fondly known as the death zone) to assist someone on my team. We ended up camping an extra night because they were exhausted, it wasn't the right decision - my partner developed pulmonary oedema overnight. Trying to sleep whilst listen to someone gurgle as they breathe, wondering whether they will still be alive in the morning, wondering whether you are going to live - it's not a nice feeling. But I never would have left them, not until they were dead.

Some of the larger expeditions are technically "the same team" but they are paying customers who don't know each other - I would never climb on a trip like that, it's insta-buddy and everything that is wrong with it.



I think that's a totally different scenario. Climbers have the time to think, assess the situation, re-assess the situation, do what they can, talk, etc. OOA divers don't have this luxury.

The analogy is not 100% aligned, but you'd be amazed at how little time you do have - particularly at higher altitudes. Plus you are not rational, your brain is starved of oxygen. The number of hallucinations I have had at altitude is... well, it happens a lot and they are very real. In the situation above where I walked past someone who needed help, it was a snap decision - one that I made because my high school Latin teacher was standing next to me at the time, conjugating Latin verbs at the same cadence as my steps. The sheer effort of putting one foot in front of the other is unbelievable. My imagined Latin teach stopped as I looked at the person I was walking past, and said in English "already dead" and carried on conjugating verbs. It was as easy as that.
 
The analogy is not 100% aligned, but you'd be amazed at how little time you do have - particularly at higher altitudes. Plus you are not rational, your brain is starved of oxygen. The number of hallucinations I have had at altitude is... well, it happens a lot and they are very real. In the situation above where I walked past someone who needed help, it was a snap decision - one that I made because my high school Latin teacher was standing next to me at the time, conjugating Latin verbs at the same cadence as my steps. The sheer effort of putting one foot in front of the other is unbelievable. My imagined Latin teach stopped as I looked at the person I was walking past, and said in English "already dead" and carried on conjugating verbs. It was as easy as that.

Wow.

That's all I can say.

It's hard, perhaps impossible, to understand what that must be like.
 
I have been climbing for over 35 years, and spent 10 years in the military. Between the two, I have been in countless number of frightening situations with my partner and my team. Some of those situations were voluntary (climbing) and some were not voluntary (military). I even know what it's like to be sent forth on a mission where survival was doubtful.

Still, I cannot predict how I will respond to any given situation until I am in that situation. However, what I can do, is plan on how I intend to respond.

When I venture into a cave with my buddy, I intend to respond by never giving up hope in an emergency. I intend to try to save me and my buddy, just as I would want him to try to save me. I intend to believe that we will both make it out alive.

If your predetermined intent is to run away and save yourself when there is an emergency, then I'll say again:

You have no business diving with a buddy in that environment.
 
If your predetermined intent is to run away and save yourself when there is an emergency, then I'll say again:

You have no business diving with a buddy in that environment.

I'm still not sure anybody at all in this thread has said they would abandon a buddy in an emergency...
 
I'm still not sure anybody at all in this thread has said they would abandon a buddy in an emergency...

Is english your second lanaguage? This entire thread is about how to ditch your partner to save yourself.

never-give-up.jpg
 
Is english your second lanaguage? This entire thread is about how to ditch your partner to save yourself.

Technically it is my second language but my mother started speaking English to me at four years old so I forgot a lot of the French. So I'm not sure what counts.

The thread is about choosing between your buddy's life or your own, or both. Not about any old emergency as you keep seeming to post about. Things would have to be really really dire for me to ditch a buddy. But no, I would not abandon them in an emergency unless it was going to cause me to die. This is the first rule of first aid and handling emergencies - don't put yourself in danger. It's not 'never give up' for good reason. To violate this would go against all of the diving and first aid training I have ever had as well as basic common sense.

I think the idea that one is not a proper buddy because they are not willing to die for their buddy is utterly ridiculous.
 

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