what/how to say 'wtf are you doing?'

[ucfdiver]

Well geez Nick, if you weren't from California, I would suggest running for public office, totally dodged the yes/no question

 

[limeyx]

Well geez Nick, if you weren't from California, I would suggest running for public office, totally dodged the yes/no question

Haha touche. I guess a lot would depend on their attitude and knowledge and how they had come about it. I would certainly hope that person would obtain Tech2 or equivalent but I also know how hard it is to get the requisite dives per year when your local area is not conducive to tech dives (although those cave dives you mentioned would for sure count as "tech2")

For instance, a GUE Cave2 diver that I know that had no tech training wanted to do some tech dives with our team and even though they likely had the buoyancy and skills to do it, I had to recommend they get a Tech class first (to say nothing of the liability)

I will fully admit to pushing our OW limits a little, by adding a third bottle with essentially NAUI TMX1 which I guess only allows 2 decos...

I suppose to go back to square one, if I hear "I am a basic cave diver doing multiple jumps and 1/3's" what I really hear is "I need to take full cave ASAP"

Maybe thats my bias and arbitrariness showing though

 

[ucfdiver]

Well dang, other than at what level it's OK to start stretching things a bit, looks like we agree

...however the more I think about this, if we go down one level further and a cavern diver were to do basic cave dives, I'd not be OK with that at all. I think it's because I know the level of skills taught in cavern isn't enough to handle cave emergencies, but I do think that basic cave divers can handle the really easy jumps.

"It depends"

 

[LiteHedded]

There was a time when t2 wan't a pre req and fundies was a workshop.

I don't even have a tech pass

stroke.

 

[BabyDuck]

For me, it honestly depends on if the person I see "violating" rules is
a) Someone I am likely ever to dive with
b) is likely to get access to an entire site shut off if they do something stupid

if it's no and no, I guess I just let them do whatever the heck they would like.

This is true with people right now that IMO are really pushing things, but not likely to directly affect my diving in any serious way ... they are adults and can do what they want whether i approve or not and good luck

terri, i like pue's idea - keep your oc stuff for lenders for far-away friends! and congrats on the upcoming drivership.:blinking:

don, good points, and i'm glad the ears earned the love.

nick, thanks for the points above. i guess that's a good starting point for people to talk *to* vs people to talk *about*.

and thanks for the instruction vs mentorship discussion. it helped me clarify my own 'lines'. it's just sometimes hard to know when it's mentorship & when it's a 'trust me' thing, especially watching from the next picnic table.

ok, way too many smilies for a serious tech discussion...i'll stop now.

 

[ucfdiver]

ok, way too many smilies for a serious tech discussion...i'll stop now.

Yes, too many smileys and it starts to look like you're being friendly.

This is a tech diving area, we don't do that here.

 

[Cave Diver]

nick, thanks for the points above. i guess that's a good starting point for people to talk *to* vs people to talk *about*.

and thanks for the instruction vs mentorship discussion. it helped me clarify my own 'lines'. it's just sometimes hard to know when it's mentorship & when it's a 'trust me' thing, especially watching from the next picnic table.

Yeah, sometimes I think talking *to* people is hard for tech divers when they don't know someone. We tend to be focused on our own stuff and when we do look around and see a stroke fest, I think we tend to be opinionated and outspoken about it. Even if we don't talk to the diver directly, we tend to turn to our buddy and say "holy crap, did you see that gear??"

OW divers are more in awe of strange configs and such and are more likely to strike up a conversation with another diver about it by asking questions. To borrow a JeffG phrase, we're more likely to point and laugh.

The mentoring thing can be tough too. I've helped a few people out with some things and as I was explaining them and they told me what their instructor said/did the thoughts running through my head are W_T_F??? Taking a step back though I realize that without being present for the class, I don't know if the instructor is a trainwreck or if the student just misunderstand/misinterprets the meaning behind the idea. I usually preface any statement after that with "I'm not an instructor, and I don't want to correct something they've taught you, but here is how I learned/how we do it..."

I usually also tell them to consider different ways of doing something and they need to be able to weigh the pros and cons of each way. If they're not able to do that, they shouldnt be doing dive. I think finding out if they have that ability is what makes the difference for my decision in telling them they're not ready to do a dive or not.

 

[TSandM]

After I finished my full cave class, John Sampson (AzTec Diver) said something to me that I won't ever forget. He said, "From this point onward, it's your buddies who keep you honest." And, if you dive with a group of well-trained and sensible people, I think there is a lot of truth to that. What people do solo isn't anywhere near as well vetted before they do it.

I didn't break any limits at the C1 level, but I stretched a couple until they squeaked. At FC, I am doing a little bit of stage diving, even though my FC class didn't cover it -- but the C2 class I took, which I provisionaled and wasn't able to get back to FL to get reevaluated for, DID cover stages. And my buddies on these dives, who range from John himself to my C1 instructor, haven't put up a bit of objection.

I think some of it depends on the level where you are pushing your limits. I totally agree that cavern divers shouldn't be doing cave dives, even with experienced buddies. I have much less of an issue with a basic cave diver running line to a jump line. And I have no issues at all with a Full Cave diver introducing stage diving or scooter diving with a mentor, although one does need to pick ones mentors carefully. But the more training and experience you have, the better fitted you should be to MAKE good decisions about where to push forward a bit, and with whom to do it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

specifically, what skills and knowledge was in Full Cave and not Apprentice?

Multiple jumps, circuits, traverses ... and a greater emphasis on making good decisions as a result of the more complex navigation.

Perhaps it's just me, but I found Full Cave to be more about the mental approach to the dive than about the physical skills ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[LiteHedded]

a cave instructor once told me there is no difference in apprentice and full.