what/how to say 'wtf are you doing?'

[limeyx]

They're somewhere along with my fish ID, stage, and basketweaving certs!

I hope thats underwater basketweaving

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

I have both, certed to basketweave wherever I please.

 

[wb416]

since there might be a legitimate reason for someone who is qualified to be cave/cavern diving to dive with what is to most of us non-standard equipment (maybe they're rinsing off after a week of rec ocean diving, maybe they're not from the us, maybe they're trying something new & different that involves pink split fins), how would you approach someone who looks 'suspicious'?

i'm serious with this question. i've seen people who i didn't think looked like cave divers cave diving but not said anything because i couldn't think of a way to ask without coming off like i was the cave police - 'may i see your license and registration??'

i agree that policing ourselves is preferable to being policed by well-intentioned but uncomprehending officials, but i don't think it's a realistic thing to expect with normal egos involved. really, would you be calm in the face of someone asking *you*?

so what approach would be least offensive or most likely to elicit correct info or most likely to get someone to stop diving like they clearly think they are able to?

Whenever I see a discussion like this, I think of the ruling in the case where Gary Gentile took on NOAA for the right to dive the Monitor.

Judge Hugh Dolan ruled in his [Gentile's} favor citing a 1980 decision which said: “A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks, for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches – that is the right and privilege of any free American.”

 

[PfcAJ]

Whenever I see a discussion like this, I think of the ruling in the case where Gary Gentile took on NOAA for the right to dive the Monitor.

Judge Hugh Dolan ruled in his [Gentile's} favor citing a 1980 decision which said: “A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks, for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches – that is the right and privilege of any free American.”

Its a nice quote and a nice thought, unfortunately, more caves are closed than are open because of people killing themselves. You know, exercising their god given free will to do as they please.

 

[ucfdiver]

Whenever I see a discussion like this, I think of the ruling in the case where Gary Gentile took on NOAA for the right to dive the Monitor.

Judge Hugh Dolan ruled in his [Gentile's} favor citing a 1980 decision which said: “A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks, for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches – that is the right and privilege of any free American.”

Like AJ said....cute.

Unfortunatly the landowner I talked to didn't think it was as humorous to turn his backyard swimming hole into a gene pool processor..

 

[wb416]

Its a nice quote and a nice thought, unfortunately, more caves are closed than are open because of people killing themselves. You know, exercising their god given free will to do as they please.

Perhaps... but then people won't be killing themselves in it by methods most of us consider stupid, nor will people that think they have skills be destroying the caves by flailing around. {shrug}

 

[Cave Diver]

Like AJ said....cute.

Unfortunatly the landowner I talked to didn't think it was as humorous to turn his backyard swimming hole into a gene pool processor..

:spit:

 

[netmage]

We did 2 circuits in apprentice class...guess that was a nono?

Not like there's many difficult traverses to be done in FL anyways, I think I could do the Grand Traverse and not break intro standards.

What - doing the recalc at every sink trick...?

 

[ucfdiver]

What - doing the recalc at every sink trick...?

Yup.

The only reasonably difficult traverses I can see being done by 99% of cave divers are from catfish to friedmans, luraville to telford, the shallow leon sinks caves, and things in the laf. blue cave system.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I think deciding whether to have a crucial conversation with a cave diver or not requires good judgment, but that is separate from also having the skills to have that conversation effectively. Some people lack one, other people lack the other, and not everyone has both.

It is also an issue that requires looking at the whole rather than just any one thing such as configuration, training, etc and often the critical element is something more subjective but far more important such as attitude, currency of experience or complacency.
As a configuration example, in backmount I tend to be pretty hog oriented but with a couple deviations that make sense for the diving I do. The irony here is that at the same time I may be alarmed by a configuration I may see, I may also be alarming to a "purist" who sees no earthly purpose for a right side waist D-ring and feels that is a clear indication of a stroke is about to kill himself. However, the reality could be a bit different with the diver whose configuration alarms me (non isolator manifold, long hose bungeeed to the right tank, etc) being a very experienced old school cave diver who cave dives 2-3 days per week. And the purist dumping on me for a right side d-ring could be a newly minted Intro cave diver with little or no more knowledge to offer than what an instructor told him was the right way to do it. If I had to make a call on which diver was unsafe in a challenging cave, that call would not be accurately made based only on cofiguration but rather would have to wait until you had a conversation with each diver.

At the other extreme, are those divers we have all seen who are obviously way out to lunch and or seriously unskilled or out of practice regardless of their cert levels.

The approach you take is also key. It may shock some people, but many cave divers and tech divers have huge egos and may not take constructive critcism all that well. In that case, the best approach with an on the edge of being safe diver may be to suggestively sell a dive plan that is far less agressive.

I was recently in a somewhat ego sensitive situation in a 3 person team where one of the divers was properly certified but not current and consequently questionable in a cave environment. By unspoken agreement and with a single look exchanged between the two of us after talking to the third, we scaled the dive plan way down to a simple mainline intro level dive and eliminated the need for lots of face saving or chest thumping by selling it as what WE wanted to do. The end result was more harmonious for all involved and resulted in the third diver getting a couple of badly needed warm up/refresher dives with very close mentoring/monitoring. The debrief also provided the opportunity to review the role of configuration choices in how the dive went with no one really needing to feel offended.

For those who you suspect may not be within the cave/technical community at all, being a bit more in their face and confrontational would I think be both appropriate and effective - especially if you are already playing on existing fears and doubts they are trying to rationalize away.