What can I learn from PADI Tec 40 course?

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Part of wether a punter can handle the task is part of accepting the punter as a candidate. Triox is a extension of advanced nitrox IMHO. If they can wrap their brain around that, then triox is no biggie. As was stated above " it ain't rocket science ".
Eric
 
Its a better option in my opinion because now the diver has the choice to use air or trimix whereas if he take tech 40 he cant get mix. It puts another tool in the tool box.

My first response is that it seems like an awful lot to introduce at the entry-level. That said, I'm not familiar with the IANTD Rec Trimix program. Is it 4 dives minimum? What's left out, to fit in the trimix knowledge/training? The Tec40 is pretty much at capacity, so I just don't see how you'd fit it all in with a comparable program.

Personally, I'd like to see a diver hold stops, accurately follow a run-time, manage some proper ascents before throwing helium into the mix. A 4 dive minimum course is adequate to cover those basics. Trimix can follow, whether rec or tec..

It isn't the size of the tool box that matters,..... what matters is the expertise which the craftsman handles the tools he has.

How is it too much? I see plenty of PADI tech 40, 45 and 50 taught all in the same week. Do you consider that too much? When taught together adv nitrox and adv rec trimix it is 8 dives with a minimum bottom time that must be reached.



Why is that? Would a PADI center deny a IANTD certification? I dont think so.

There way fewer IANTD instructors than PADI tech instructors.
Example: There are 30 dive ops in the Upper Keys, at least a dozen + PADI tech instructors and not even 1 IANTD instructor.

The cert cards are universally accepted.



Happy Diving!
Elena

If the cards are accepted everywhere then it shouldnt matter how many instructors/dive shops there is. Im not bashing PADI but if a student wants a rec trimix course then he/she should take one. Does PADI have one? Not everyone wants to dive deep air.
 
Please explain your critique...

The following lists the equipment that is required for the Tec 40 course.
• Any one of the following appropriately labeled and marked options:
• A single cylinder with a dual outlet valve (eg H valve or Y valve).
• A single cylinder with single outlet valve and a pony bottle. Pony bottle should have same gas as main cylinder, or be breathable at the deepest planned dive depth. The minimum size cylinder is one with a free gas capacity of 850 litres/30 cubic feet.
• Back mounted doubles with dual isolator manifold
• Two side mounted cylinders (sidemount configuration)
•Two complete regulators, one with a two metre/seven foot hose for air sharing and one with SPG. Where two, unmanifolded cylinders are used (sidemount or pony bottle), each regulator must have an SPG, carried and/or marked in such a way as to avoid confusion between them.
• Stage/deco cylinder with attachment hardware and a single second stage regulator and SPG. Note: It is recommended that each diver have and use individual stage/deco cylinders. However, it is acceptable for students to practice required skills with a shared cylinder.
• BCD with D-rings or other attachment points for a stage/deco cylinder. (See note below.)
• Two dive computers, or one computer with a backup timer and depth gauge with dive tables.
• Exposure suit appropriate for environment and dive duration (if students will use dry suits, they should be trained/experienced in their use in recreational diving prior to using them for tec training or diving).
• Argon dry suit inflation system (as needed for environment)
• Weight system (If required. Note: Students and staff should weight for the contingency of decompressing with near-empty cylinders.)
• Jon line (as needed for environment)
• Inflatable signal tube, whistle and/or other visual and audible surface signaling devices. Note that a sausage type DSMB may double for the inflatable signal tube.
• Reel and lift bag (bright yellow preferred) or DSMB. A suitable DSMB has sufficient buoyancy to help steady a diver during a drifting decompression, and is unlikely to spill when deployed from the underwater.
• Knife/cutting device and back up
• Slate
• Back up mask (optional)
• Compass
• Lights (optional – as required for dive environment)
• Backup buoyancy control – the student must have a reliable means for controlling buoyancy and maintaining decompression stops in midwater with a failed primary BCD. This is usually accomplished with a backup BCD (double wings) or, when using light weight cylinders, the use of a dry suit is permitted.

Note that in cases where the student is carrying a relatively small quantity of overall weight (e.g., a single cylinder only) one source of buoyancy control may be acceptable at the instructor’s discretion, provided that there is a reliable alternative method for maintaining decompression stops, such as ascending along a mooring line or decompressing on the bottom if topography allows.
Note: A lift bag/DSMB is not considered a reliable method of backup buoyancy control.




..

The key gear issue to me, is PADI Tech either 1) ALLOWING, OR 2) ENDORSING, the use of tanks that are so HEAVY that the Instructor and Agency feel the need to mandate redundant Buoyancy....So a diver in PADI Tech can easily buy two heavy steels, add a heavy steel stage, and then match this to a thick wetsuit for a 200 foot dive....In PADI Tech, this is just fine and dandy--as long as they have a double bladder wing, and these double bladder wings are obviously ultra high lift wings also.

The key configuration issues, are allowing gear to be slapped on in such a fashion that the diver swims at a head up and feet down posture ( often largely due to the huge weight of tanks and huge lift of the monster wings, and the way this interacts on the diver)...and then I have seen stages dragged by instructors in a manner that causes big drag, as opposed to the proper manner that has the stage out of the flow.
 
Please explain your critique...

The following lists the equipment that is required for the Tec 40 course.
• Any one of the following appropriately labeled and marked options:
• A single cylinder with a dual outlet valve (eg H valve or Y valve).
• A single cylinder with single outlet valve and a pony bottle. Pony bottle should have same gas as main cylinder, or be breathable at the deepest planned dive depth. The minimum size cylinder is one with a free gas capacity of 850 litres/30 cubic feet.
• Back mounted doubles with dual isolator manifold
• Two side mounted cylinders (sidemount configuration)
•Two complete regulators, one with a two metre/seven foot hose for air sharing and one with SPG. Where two, unmanifolded cylinders are used (sidemount or pony bottle), each regulator must have an SPG, carried and/or marked in such a way as to avoid confusion between them.
• Stage/deco cylinder with attachment hardware and a single second stage regulator and SPG. Note: It is recommended that each diver have and use individual stage/deco cylinders. However, it is acceptable for students to practice required skills with a shared cylinder.
• BCD with D-rings or other attachment points for a stage/deco cylinder. (See note below.)
• Two dive computers, or one computer with a backup timer and depth gauge with dive tables.
• Exposure suit appropriate for environment and dive duration (if students will use dry suits, they should be trained/experienced in their use in recreational diving prior to using them for tec training or diving).
• Argon dry suit inflation system (as needed for environment)
• Weight system (If required. Note: Students and staff should weight for the contingency of decompressing with near-empty cylinders.)
• Jon line (as needed for environment)
• Inflatable signal tube, whistle and/or other visual and audible surface signaling devices. Note that a sausage type DSMB may double for the inflatable signal tube.
• Reel and lift bag (bright yellow preferred) or DSMB. A suitable DSMB has sufficient buoyancy to help steady a diver during a drifting decompression, and is unlikely to spill when deployed from the underwater.
• Knife/cutting device and back up
• Slate
• Back up mask (optional)
• Compass
• Lights (optional – as required for dive environment)
• Backup buoyancy control – the student must have a reliable means for controlling buoyancy and maintaining decompression stops in midwater with a failed primary BCD. This is usually accomplished with a backup BCD (double wings) or, when using light weight cylinders, the use of a dry suit is permitted.

Note that in cases where the student is carrying a relatively small quantity of overall weight (e.g., a single cylinder only) one source of buoyancy control may be acceptable at the instructor’s discretion, provided that there is a reliable alternative method for maintaining decompression stops, such as ascending along a mooring line or decompressing on the bottom if topography allows.
Note: A lift bag/DSMB is not considered a reliable method of backup buoyancy control.




..

The key gear issue to me, is PADI Tech either 1) ALLOWING, OR 2) ENDORSING, the use of tanks that are so HEAVY that the Instructor and Agency feel the need to mandate redundant Buoyancy....So a diver in PADI Tech can easily buy two heavy steels, add a heavy steel stage, and then match this to a thick wetsuit for a 200 foot dive....In PADI Tech, this is just fine and dandy--as long as they have a double bladder wing, and these double bladder wings are obviously ultra high lift wings also.

The key configuration issues, are allowing gear to be slapped on in such a fashion that the diver swims at a head up and feet down posture ( often largely due to the huge weight of tanks and huge lift of the monster wings, and the way this interacts on the diver)...and then I have seen stages dragged by instructors in a manner that causes big drag, as opposed to the proper manner that has the stage out of the flow.

This thread is about padi tec40. This course does not allow dives to 200 feet. Please keep your comments on subject. If you wish to complain about padi please start a different thread. Thank you.
 
How is it too much? I see plenty of PADI tech 40, 45 and 50 taught all in the same week.

That depends on the standards of the instructor, and learning speed of the student. Progression from dive-to-dive and module-to-module is performance dependent.

Do you consider that too much?

It depends entirely on the student. For most, yes, I do... in a week. For some, they need substantially more practice time between modules; days, weeks or months.

When taught together adv nitrox and adv rec trimix it is 8 dives with a minimum bottom time that must be reached.

So, IANTD Rec Trimix isn't a direct equivalent to Tec40? That's what's pertinent to the OP's question.

if a student wants a rec trimix course then he/she should take one. Does PADI have one?

PADI do allow Tec50 to be taken using normoxic trimix for safety reasons. That doesn't change the c-card issued though. That makes it all rather pointless, IMHO, because training doesn't meet the certification.

Other than that, the Tec65 qualification gives min18%O2, but is firmly 'tech' with accelerated deco (a step beyond Tec50/ER)
 
This thread is about padi tec40. This course does not allow dives to 200 feet. Please keep your comments on subject. If you wish to complain about padi please start a different thread. Thank you.

So you don't see the problem from matching "multiple" heavy steels to a wetsuit...even only going to 120 feet deep? This is the issue, and then keeping the masses blind to the implications is part of the problem---part with all PADI TECH.
The nonsense of the dual bladder solution to a wing failure, for a diver as heavy as a HARD HAT DIVER, would be laughable, if not for the potential for someone dying from this, that is a friend.
 
Dan, for the sake of educational accuracy for the OP: Let's clarify that PADI is far from the only agency that doesn't mandate a strict prohibition against using steel cylinders in conjunction with a wetsuit. In fact, the number of agencies with specific prohibition against that choice of configurations is hugely outnumbered by those that do not feel the need to spell that out in their equipment-related standards.

For the sake of the OP, and to clarify what is/isn't taught/endorsed... here's what the Tec40 course says specifically about the issue:

The tec harness is recommended because you will use it when you move on to the Tec 45 course, and because you can use a double bladder BCD (BCD with two independent bladders and inflation/deflation systems) so you have backup buoyancy control.
• In a decompression situation, simply dropping weights to restore buoyancy may not be an option because you would have too much buoyancy to maintain a decompression stop.
• Planning for BCD failure must be part of planning any technical dive. The double bladder BCD is the simplest, most reliable option.
• The Tec 40 rig (single cylinder) is not as negatively buoyant as higher level tec rigs, so redundant buoyancy is not mandatory at this level.

.....Dry suits offer the longest durations and coldest water protection.
a. They may provide ample backup buoyancy.


And here is how the philosophy is amplified on the Tec45 course (where the student must be in full technical rig):

Weighting

1. Proper weighting and adequate backup buoyancy remain two areas commonly addressed inadequately in open circuit technical divers.
2. Perhaps the most common weighting error in tec diving is under weighting.
a. Proper weighting means you’re able to maintain your final stop depth with nearly empty back cylinders and either no or near empty deco cylinders – this is what would happen if you had a major problem forcing you into a long deco using your gas reserve, and/or decoing on back gas.
b. If you were not weighted for this, you face a high DCS risk, because you would not be able to remain at stops.
c. As an example, a properly weighted tec diver wearing high capacity doubles and two deco cylinders will be about 14 kg/30 lbs negatively buoyant at the start of a dive, and 4.5 kg/10 lbs or more negative at the end if dive goes as planned.
d. In this example, inadequate weighting would mean that in an emergency situation, besides the original problem, you also have to deal with between 4.5 kg/10lbs and 14 kg/30 lbs positive buoyancy while trying to decompress.

Backup buoyancy is critical in most open water, open circuit technical diving because a diver is substantially negatively buoyant throughout the dive.

1. Failure of the primary BCD without a backup leaves no alternative but to drop equipment (deco cylinders, weights, etc.). This can make the situation worse if the diver must discard deco gases to attain buoyancy.

2. Discarding gear may result in too much buoyancy. If the diver is already in deco, the ability to decompress effectively becomes compromised, growing worse as the diver consumes gas.

3. There is a high likelihood of surfacing with omitted decompression if the diver cannot maintain stop depths, or lacks the required decompression gases, or both.

4. A dry suit may work as a backup buoyancy device.
a. This is primarily an option when the dive will be relatively short and shallow, with short decompression – the gas requirement is low, so the diver is not substantially negatively buoyant (such as when using aluminum cylinders).
b. Limited option – most dry suits will not hold more than small amount of excess gas. Beyond a certain point, it escapes through neck/wrist seals.
c. Several manufacturers caution against inflating their dry suits to gain large amounts of buoyancy because of zipper failure issues.
d. A large volume of expanding gas is harder to control in a dry suit.
e. With deeper/longer tec dives, backup buoyancy control other than the dry suit is generally necessary.

5. Some have advocated using a lift bag or DSMB as a backup buoyancy device. This has several problems:
a. DSMBs and lift bags are not designed as buoyancy devices and are difficult to control in that role.
• They are even more difficult to control while trying to perform gas switches, handle a gas shutdown, etc.
• Even if learned and practiced, it is not a skill one would expect a diver to perform reliably in a real failed BCD emergency over the course of a real decompression. If it has not been practiced at all, it would be especially difficult.
• DSMBs/lift bags do not provide a realistic buoyancy system for positive buoyancy at the surface after completing decompression.
• Using a DSMB/lift bag as back up buoyancy would require the diver to hold on to the bag while dealing with other tasks, or it would have to be clipped to the harness. Either would compromise safety.
b. If the DSMB/lift bag is used for backup buoyancy, then it is not available to send to the surface.
c. Sending the DSMB/bag to the surface and hanging on the line for buoyancy is not a good option either.
• In all but flat seas, this will cause the diver to rise and fall, compromising the quality of the decompression.
• Once sent up, there is no way to adjust the bag’s buoyancy.
• It is not a technique that transfers well to other environments.
• Stress on the line and reel is a major issue. For this to be reliable, the diver would need to carry much heavier line and a larger reel than most tec divers prefer.
d. Trying to use a lift bag or DSMB as a backup buoyancy system unnecessarily complicates an emergency situation, and provides inadequate benefit.

6. It’s worth noting that no dry suit manufacturer and no lift bag manufacturer sanctions the use of their products as tec diving backup buoyancy devices. Some specifically warn against it.

7. The redundant (double bladder) BCD is the most realistic approach to providing backup buoyancy control.
a. They are designed for the job and endorsed by the manufacturers.
b. They are used the same way as your primary BCD – a well practiced skill you use on every dive, exactly what you want in an emergency situation.
c. They are applicable to virtually all dive environments.
d. Other than a slightly higher investment, there are no meaningful drawbacks.
e. They are the only real option for open water tec diving in a wet suit.

PADI hasn't adopted a 'balanced rig' approach. I'd guess that was liability-based and also reflects a belief that different solutions have relevance in different areas. They merely demand redundant buoyancy for safety and don't allow lift-bag/DSMB as an option. Most agencies demand redundant buoyancy. I think that principle is why I see so many GUE divers sweating in drysuits here in the Philippines...

Requiring redundant buoyancy does not advocate grossly over-weighted diving. It'd be a huge leap (failure) of logic to make that connection. And if you did, then PADI certainly wouldn't stand alone in this..

We both (I am sure) know instructors who teach for GUE and PADI. If PADI were enforcing configurations or philosophies that were inherently bad, then I fail to understand how those GUE instructors could reconcile teaching for them. The fact is... PADI don't. Neither those instructors, nor myself, find any limitation on teaching safe, well-considered technical diving.

You've seen some PADI technical instructors teaching badly... in hugely unbalanced rigs. That remains an instructor issue. It also remains an issue across a broad spread of agencies.
 
. . .6. It’s worth noting that no dry suit manufacturer and no lift bag manufacturer sanctions the use of their products as tec diving backup buoyancy devices. Some specifically warn against it. . . .
My redundant source of buoyancy for both tropical skinsuit and even cold water drysuit diving:

Lift Bags | Halcyon
"The Halcyon Closed-Circuit lift bag provides the most reliable source of redundant buoyancy at depth or on the surface; these bags eliminate the chance that gas will escape from your lift bag during ascent or while on the surface."
 
Why couldnt I do The IANTD advanced nitrox course and the padi tech 40? Or is that just overkill? From what I gather they both have the advantages?
 
Why couldnt I do The IANTD advanced nitrox course and the padi tech 40? Or is that just overkill? From what I gather they both have the advantages?

They have similar outcomes. Most of it would be redundant.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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