What are your buddy "requirements"?

[nitroxbabe]

Well yes you are trying to be confrontational. The fact that you preface a statement with "I'm not trying to be confrontational but..." always means just the opposite. It's like saying "I don't want to get anyone in trouble, but..." or "I don't want to hurt your feelings, but..."

Seems to me that your whole issue here is that I assumed he had O2 exposure in the initial scenario. SORRY!

If he was well within his limits he was exposed to minimal risk, true.

This situation aside, I still say what I say about the whole concept of risking oneself.

I've never had to make these kinds of decisions and I hope I never do.

If you have an issue about the "risking yourself" concept I suggest you take it up with the person who wrote the PADI Rescue Diver manual. That's what they wrote & what I was taught.

If I was near my O2 exposure limit and my buddy was far below me, I think my best choice would be to NOT go after him/her but to get someone else to go down. I would even rather surface too quickly and risk the bends than risk an O2 hit w/ possible blackout. Then who's going to rescue me? At least on the surface I could breathe.

tampascott once bubbled...
I'm still trying to figure out where the risk of an 02 hit is (assuming his exposure isn't up against a wall, in which case that would have been his fault, not hers).

Nitroxbabe, no one should be rude with you, but you said:

1. You wouldn't have gone after her, and
2. You wouldn't risk an 02 hit at that depth.

No where in the scenerio was there mentioned that his 02 exposure was a problem. You're own reply stated you wouldn't go that deep with 32%.

Now you're saying you would have gone after her.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, buy maybe you should reconcile some of these issues before you dive with someone, especially deep. Your replies indicate you're very uncertain as to what you would do.

If I needed help at 125 ft, and my partner refused to come down and give it to me because he was afraid of a convulsion (while diving 32%, no less), I would need to be restrained from him in the boat (assuming I made it back alive).

Frankly, if I had to, I would go down to 140ft and get my buddy breathing 32%. I'd grab his azz, and lay on my power inflator until it was burping, dragging us both up to a safer depth. I couldn't live with myself to just let someone swim away. That "I'm no good to anyone dead" sounds like a big cop-out if you could safely grab or direct someone.

 

[Walter]

I plan my mix for 1.4 atm O2 at the hard bottom.

I do not expect everyone to have MOD's memorized from various nitrox mixes (not even EAN 32 & EAN 36, which I have not found to be substantially more common than other mixes).

I do expect nitrox divers to be able to find the MOD prior to making their dives.

For that reason, I would not hold it against someone on this board for mistakenly thinking 125 ft is dangerously deep for an emergency on EAN 32.

She made a mistake guys about a mix and depth she wasn't planning to dive. She made this mistake when her resources (tables and/or formulas) were not in front of her.

Scott, I won't render assistance at 125 ft on EAN 32 because I won't be breathing EAN 32 when the hard bottom is 125 ft. OTOH, I will come after any buddy at any time if there's a chance I can help.

Scubaholic,

"Before we help someone, let's determine if they have met the level of intelligence that will make the world a better place."

She never said that. She indicated that when people make stupid choices sometimes they have to live with the consequences. The woman was a dope. It's even worse, because she never understood (even after) just how stupid she acted or that her life was saved by a stranger.

It's not being a dope to make a mistake on MOD when working from memory. OTOH, rudeness is often evidence of other undesirable traits. I'm assuming you merely had a bad day. You should apologize.

kwesler,

You were correct in your actions. The only thing I would change is the post dive debriefing. The "dope" needs to understand she was a dope and why. It may stop her from being a dope in the future.

 

[Walter]

Babe,

Any rescue involves risk. As a rescuer, you need to determine the level of risk involved. If there's risk of you incurring a minor injury, to save another's life, you go for it. If, OTOH, you are likely to die, you should not attempt the rescue. The bottom line is it is better to have one dead diver than two dead divers.

The concept you are following is a very sound one. It is not a PADI concept. It is a rescue concept that has been a part of rescue operations since long before SCUBA existed. It has been a part of SCUBA rescues since long before PADI existed. "Better thee than me." is often heard in rescue classes.

Your reasoning is sound. If the bottom had been deeper or if he'd been on a richer mix it would have applied quite well in the scenario.

 

[WreckWriter]

nitroxbabe once bubbled...
I guess this raises an interesting question - how far are those of you out there in cyberspace willing to go to help someone regarding your personal safety???

Actually it comes down to two questions: first, as you say, how much risk are you willing to take to save a life? Second, maybe even a more important question: Having made the decision of not risking it, are you willing to live with it afterwards?

Using the original example, while that exact scenario was admittedly not a major risk on Ken's part, let's say the depth was increased enough so that it was more of a risk. Just for example let's say the woman was at 150 fsw and Ken was on EANx 32 viewing the situation from 120 or so. At 150 the PO2 on 32% would be close to 1.8, roughly equivalent to a 250 FSW air dive. That's a fair amount of risk, I'm sure most will agree, but not suicidal (some may not agree with that part).

Let's say he chose NOT to act. Is he instead to hang at his safe depth and watch the demise of the woman, then surface to report what happened? After all, its not his fault, he can't be expected to risk his own life for someone he doesn't even know, can he?

I suggest that we ask the husband and children. We ask those to whom Ken will have to explain his lack of action, those whose faces will forever live in his memory.

Its up to you if you act or not. For myself, if the situation is more than two steps short of suicide, I think I'll act, I'll try to save that life, even if it is the life of an idiot because someone, somewhere, loves that idiot and thinks he or she is the most important thing in the world.

When one becomes a rescue trained diver that is, in my opinion, part of the package.

Tom

 

[DiverBuoy]

kwesler once bubbled...


Sure...for PADI AOW, "deep" means 60 feet or greater, and "wreck" can be a boat sunk 30' deep in a quarry.

Sigh...

kewsler, actually here is the scale:

OW - 0-60 fsw
AOW - 60-100 fsw
Deep speciality 100-130 fsw
Tech- 130-165 fsw

 

[nitroxbabe]

...for the support.

Comments for WreckWriter: every situation calls for different actions. OK, if Ken was in the high-risk situation below, he's got a major problem, doesn't he? But, is anyone else around who could help? Is there any way of getting the diver's attention? Is there anyone to rescue Ken if he takes an O2 hit?

I read a sobering chapter in (I think it was anyhow...) the Last Dive. It was an anecdote of a diver who, while swimming on the outside of a wreck, heard a diver screaming and pounding on the wall on the inside of the wreck. He could have tried to go in and rescue the diver, but realized his danger would be extreme due to the panicked state of the other diver. He chose to not go in. Therefore there was one dead diver that day, not two.

I would be happy to help anyone UW and would do so to the best of my abilities without SERIOUS RISK. I would try to get behind a panicked diver & help them ascend, I would share my air with anyone, etc etc etc.

But in the scenario you describe below, I just don't know. I can't rescue anyone if I need rescue too. And I certainly can't rescue anyone if I'm dead.

WreckWriter once bubbled...


Actually it comes down to two questions: first, as you say, how much risk are you willing to take to save a life? Second, maybe even a more important question: Having made the decision of not risking it, are you willing to live with it afterwards?

Using the original example, while that exact scenario was admittedly not a major risk on Ken's part, let's say the depth was increased enough so that it was more of a risk. Just for example let's say the woman was at 150 fsw and Ken was on EANx 32 viewing the situation from 120 or so. At 150 the PO2 on 32% would be close to 1.8, roughly equivalent to a 250 FSW air dive. That's a fair amount of risk, I'm sure most will agree, but not suicidal (some may not agree with that part).

Let's say he chose NOT to act. Is he instead to hang at his safe depth and watch the demise of the woman, then surface to report what happened? After all, its not his fault, he can't be expected to risk his own life for someone he doesn't even know, can he?

I suggest that we ask the husband and children. We ask those to whom Ken will have to explain his lack of action, those whose faces will forever live in his memory.

Its up to you if you act or not. For myself, if the situation is more than two steps short of suicide, I think I'll act, I'll try to save that life, even if it is the life of an idiot because someone, somewhere, loves that idiot and thinks he or she is the most important thing in the world.

When one becomes a rescue trained diver that is, in my opinion, part of the package.

Tom

 

[WreckWriter]

nitroxbabe once bubbled...
...for the support.

Comments for WreckWriter: every situation calls for different actions. OK, if Ken was in the high-risk situation below, he's got a major problem, doesn't he? But, is anyone else around who could help? Is there any way of getting the diver's attention? Is there anyone to rescue Ken if he takes an O2 hit?

I read a sobering chapter in (I think it was anyhow...) the Last Dive. It was an anecdote of a diver who, while swimming on the outside of a wreck, heard a diver screaming and pounding on the wall on the inside of the wreck. He could have tried to go in and rescue the diver, but realized his danger would be extreme due to the panicked state of the other diver. He chose to not go in. Therefore there was one dead diver that day, not two.

I would be happy to help anyone UW and would do so to the best of my abilities without SERIOUS RISK. I would try to get behind a panicked diver & help them ascend, I would share my air with anyone, etc etc etc.

But in the scenario you describe below, I just don't know. I can't rescue anyone if I need rescue too. And I certainly can't rescue anyone if I'm dead.

Its a judgement call. As you say, each situation is. A friend of mine got into a situation somewhat similar to the one you describe from the book. He made the other choice. Of the 2 divers trapped in the wreck, one died, one was saved. My friend got badly bent.

Would he have made the same choice knowing what would happen to him in the end? I can't speak for him but my guess is that he would have. He was the captain of the boat, they were HIS divers. Who knows though.

Like you say, each situation is different. Just don't forget that the choice you make will live in your head for the rest of your life.

Tom

 

[SM Diver]

WreckWriter once bubbled...


Actually it comes down to two questions: first, as you say, how much risk are you willing to take to save a life? Second, maybe even a more important question: Having made the decision of not risking it, are you willing to live with it afterwards?

Using the original example, while that exact scenario was admittedly not a major risk on Ken's part, let's say the depth was increased enough so that it was more of a risk. Just for example let's say the woman was at 150 fsw and Ken was on EANx 32 viewing the situation from 120 or so. At 150 the PO2 on 32% would be close to 1.8, roughly equivalent to a 250 FSW air dive. That's a fair amount of risk, I'm sure most will agree, but not suicidal (some may not agree with that part).

Let's say he chose NOT to act. Is he instead to hang at his safe depth and watch the demise of the woman, then surface to report what happened? After all, its not his fault, he can't be expected to risk his own life for someone he doesn't even know, can he?

I suggest that we ask the husband and children. We ask those to whom Ken will have to explain his lack of action, those whose faces will forever live in his memory.

Its up to you if you act or not. For myself, if the situation is more than two steps short of suicide, I think I'll act, I'll try to save that life, even if it is the life of an idiot because someone, somewhere, loves that idiot and thinks he or she is the most important thing in the world.

When one becomes a rescue trained diver that is, in my opinion, part of the package.

Tom

Tom,

You expressed the point I was trying to convey, but in a much more coherent and diplomatic fashion. I guess I won't be too hard on myself, since you're a writer!

P.S.: I especially liked this part:

I'll try to save that life, even if it is the life of an idiot because someone, somewhere, loves that idiot and thinks he or she is the most important thing in the world.

 

[O-ring]

I read a sobering chapter in (I think it was anyhow...) the Last Dive. It was an anecdote of a diver who, while swimming on the outside of a wreck, heard a diver screaming and pounding on the wall on the inside of the wreck. He could have tried to go in and rescue the diver, but realized his danger would be extreme due to the panicked state of the other diver. He chose to not go in. Therefore there was one dead diver that day, not two.

The anecdote you are talking about happened to the late Steve Berman. If you remember the rest of it, it tortured him for years afterward and he spent the rest of his days wondering if he made the right decision.

As for myself, I would have to help if I could. It is rare for me to dive with people I don't know well....and the people I dive with regularly are my friends outside of diving. We play pool, have a couple beers, talk about women, whatever...point is, they are my friends and I know most of their significant others and/or children. I could not go back to the dock that day if I hadn't done everything I could and look them in the face again or look at myself in the mirror.

 

[WreckWriter]

It may be part of the difference that I've done the "blow in the dead guy's mouth on the deck of the boat while his family watches" routine twice. I very much hope none of you ever have to.

Tom