Is the Deep cert really necessary?

[grantmac]

You refer to yourself as a Marine Scientist and a Master Instructor and this is the **** you post. I applaud your achievements but your total lack of thinking on this issue is reprehensible. ZERO credibility and unethical - ad hominin attack on the poster and no meaningful response to the questions at hand. You (and those who parroted you) don't know the correct answers

General Rules
• Ascend from all dives at a rate not to exceed 18m (most DC's now use 9m/per minute) per minute.
• When planning a dive in cold water or under conditions that might be strenuous, plan the dive assuming the depth is 4m deeper than actual.
• Plan repetitive dives so each successive dive is to a shallower depth. Limit repetitive dives to 30m or shallower.
• Never exceed the limits of this planner and, whenever possible, avoid diving to the limits of the planner. 42m is for emergency purposes only, do not dive to this depth.

I feel my comment of old training, not updated just keeps getting more justified. That you teach is even more disturbing.

 

[Alekseolsen]

I feel my comment of old training, not updated just keeps getting more justified. That you teach is even more disturbing.

Luckily the forum-bots aren't allowed to hold courses yet

 

[divezonescuba]

That's crazy...uncomfortably sharing air when you're practically at the surface in the least stressful conditions. I wonder what they'd be like down deep; the diver actually missed a great training opportunity. Another reason I prefer diving solo with divers like this allowed in the water.

I spoke to that diver after the dive. Apparently he was a newer diver. The guy was quite large and was doing well if he could last 30 minutes on a 60 foot dive. It was only after I spoke to him did I find out why he aborted the safety stop early. That dive was an excursion off of a cruise ship. I think that you get a different level of diver off of those in general.

CITA who I think I mentioned earlier, mandates a regulator 20 feet down under the boat. I think it is for that purpose. I was on one dive with CBBR on Cayman Brac when a diver actually needed to do just that. He got a lot of looks from the boat crew once he surfaced.

 

[rongoodman]

It seems to me that expecting a newer diver uncomfortable sharing air to do so just in order to complete an optional stop is asking for real trouble. Whether or not he should be allowed back in the water is a separate issue.

 

[Wibble]

Why is 40m PADI's absolute maximum?

It's not. They do technical courses for diving below 40m/132ft.

If you mean "why is 40m PADI's recreational diving maximum depth" then, as you obviously know, it's where there's real danger with greatly increased risks. Also, it is wholly inappropriate to dive beyond that depth on a single ali80, due to the small amount of gas available, lack of redundancy, need for decompression, moderate to severe narcosis impairment (and gas now density).

For all diving, there's loads of maximum depths. 18m for OW, 30m for AOW, 40m for Deep Speciality.
For technical divers, there's various other maximum depths: 45m for ANDP, 52m for ART, 55m for Extended Range, 60m for normoxic trimix, 30m,40m and 45m for MOD1, 60m and 70m for MOD2.

Then there's the maximum limits for the kit and gas you've got. OC uses a max PPO2 of 1.4 and 1.6; thus nitrox 32% is 1.4/0.32=4.375=33m, etc., etc.

If anyone wants to be a dumb fool and go against those limits, fill yer boots. More deaths by ignorant and untrained people pushing it because of Dunning Kruger; those who don't know enough to know how dangerous it is.

 

[waxrash]

There is an old adage for instructors: Tell the students what they need to know, not everything you know.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That is perfect. My IT always said, "Never teach a problem". When SCUBA transitioned from a testosterone sport to one accessible to people of all walks of life, all abilities, etc. We had to adapt how we teach. I appreciate what Lorenzoid is saying. Sounds like his exercises went too far or he was not ready and his fun light went off. This is a failure in instruction, not knowing the student abilities and when their fun light goes off and adapting to make it fun.

I'm sure this will blow up some old timers feathers but one good example I saw was "Take your SCUBA kit, bundle it all together and throw it in the deep end of the pool. Now dive in, and put it on". Although many could do it without a doubt, does this make more confident divers, or is this some weed out the weak exercise. This is not a real world exercise. I always tell my students "If I ask you to do something, your first question should be why? When might I use this skill? Make me tell you!" If I can't answer something is really wrong.

Lorenzoid, don't give up. Comfort thru repetition. But it has to be at your own pace. I really love to team teach. Some of my favorite experiences are working with other instructors, where we can break up groups, peel off those who may need to do it another time, or quite often just give them time to work thru the anxiety. One person may get it in 2 seconds, another might take multiple sessions. These are not natural skills. The instructor should adapt the course to the student. I have no doubt you can be a confident deep diver, don't be afraid to try again.

Avoid the "Cheapest C Card" approach. Biggest mistake I see new divers make. Do you want the cheapest parachute to jump out of a plane, the cheapest instructor, the cheapest pilot". Heck no. You want to be confident and what it takes to make one person confident might not be the same for another.

 

[waxrash]

I hope by this you mean something VERY different than I think of as " a new experience". Frankly I want every dive to be "a new experiece" if you mean every new 20 meters of depth I could follow that, but a course for boat, dark, Night, cold, with fish, without fish, blue water accent, beach accent etc. Would just kill all joy that've "lured me" into this sport. A course is something I need to do in order to safely do a type of dives I wish to do (and at some sites, to be allowed to do them), but they have never been a target in themselves.

Experience probably a bad choice of words, I mean new environments that might create stress in the diver where going with an experienced dive master or instructor who can provide guidance could reduce the stress and in turn create a more enjoyable experience.

 

[CG43]

Hello

When SCUBA transitioned from a testosterone sport to one accessible to people of all walks of life, all abilities, etc. We had to adapt how we teach.

Ok , I agree , but there is a serious problem with such limits like 40 m for scuba .
For most healthy and athletic people who breathe properly, dive in a relaxed manner and avoid excessive exertion, this limit is too narrow.
Humans are curious and by nature also willing to take risks. And of course the Rubicon is then quickly exceeded. Risks should be described accurately and without exaggerations, otherwise you quickly lose credibility.
What do you do with the 90m depth of Cousteau and his divers ?

And ,physics and physiology does not ask for a certificate !

 

[Wibble]

Ok , I agree , but there is a serious problem with such limits like 40 m for scuba .
For most healthy and athletic people who breathe properly, dive in a relaxed manner and avoid excessive exertion, this limit is too narrow.

The 40m/132ft limit is used as there is very little bottom time without a decompression obligation — a very practical limit for recreational diving. There is also the high levels of narcosis and need for equipment redundancy along with superior skills which are not taught in recreational classes.

Humans are curious and by nature also willing to take risks. And of course the Rubicon is then quickly exceeded. Risks should be described accurately and without exaggerations, otherwise you quickly lose credibility.

The oceans are littered with the corpses of people who pushed the limits and didn’t have the skills nor attitude to overcome the many challenges that deeper, longer and overhead diving presents.

This is the realm of technical diving where the considerable additional skills and knowledge is developed in order to plan and dive safely.

What do you do with the 90m depth of Cousteau and his divers ?

And ,physics and physiology does not ask for a certificate !

What the early pioneers such as Cousteau did is not considered safe these days. We have developed the equipment, planning and skills to execute 90m/300ft dives safely by any fit and reasonably experienced diver nowadays. Decompression theory, diving procedures, trimix, rebreathers, bailouts, shotlines, technology, preparation, planning and knowledge have all developed phenomenally. Literally none of that was available to those early pioneers who were “lucky” to complete their dives as the really pushed the limits.

We all stand on the shoulders of giants. Relying upon luck and ignorance whilst diving outside of your experience is unsafe and risky. Death and injury awaits the foolhardy.

 

[CG43]

Hello Wibble

We all stand on the shoulders of giants.

I learned diving from the book "The silent world".
Cousteau , Emile Gagnan , Dumas were my heroes .
But were they giants ?
I was soon able to reach her freediving limits. Gigants have much other limits .
In terms of technology, Cousteau did not come up with the simple and logical solution of the one way valve on the diver for the Fernez aparatus and Emile Gagnan's first protptype had the diaphragm in the wrong position and the exhalation valve far away from it . Gigant's ? shure no .
But they showed you a way to dive and that's why they were my hero's

Why are cavediving, technical diving and wreck diving so popular today?
Doesn't that also have to do with the challenge ?
One likes a 6 hour cave dive with 4 hours deco, another gets high on a short air deep.
Neither is really safe.