We don't need no education....

[mmcnamara]

You can choose to limit your dive site choices by your education choices, but just don't whine if you're refused on a charter. That's what makes our world wonderful, you can somehow manage to go all these years without any certification (somewhat remarkable) in anything and the dive ops have the option to bump you without apology or embarrassment.

I'm a self-studied expert in the history of the great wars, does that qualify me to take troops into combat or teach a college course on the world wars? Your list means nothing... truly.

Looking at the lists of certification courses given by TDI and PADI I am missing these. But as I have been doing deep wrecks since 1983, mix since 1993, and mixing my own gas since 1997, I think I'll skip them all.

TDI
Advanced Nitrox Diver
Decompression Procedures Diver
Extended Range Diver
Advanced Trimix Diver
Overhead Environment Courses
Advanced Wreck Diver
Nitrox Gas Blender
Advanced Gas Blender
O2 Service Technician

PADI
Adventure Diver
Boat Diver
Deep Diver
Drift Diver
Dry Suit Diver
Ice Diver
Multilevel Diver
Night Diver
Search and Recovery Diver
Wreck Diver
Discover Tec Diving
Tec Diver Level One
Tec Deep Diver
Tec Trimix Diver
Tec Gas Blender

 

[Paladin]

Regarding education Incubus is correct.

If you only dive with the same people for 20 years and take 15 years off from diving, it is reasonable to say there are some gaps in your education that should be verified before you're welcome on a penetration wreck or cave dive. Having new instructors and mentors in your life will only enhance what you've already learned with new ideas.

I don't think Incubus was referring to easy recreation dives, but dives that put OTHERS in jeopardy, besides those unwilling to certify out of stubborn pride.

How would they even know about a 14 year hiatus if you don't tell them? Just curious.

 

[AfterDark]

How would they even know about a 14 year hiatus if you don't tell them? Just curious.

Maybe they are PADI certified to read minds.

 

[ucfdiver]

How would they even know about a 14 year hiatus if you don't tell them? Just curious.

The fact that you can get in the water after 14 years and lose zero skills, says something about the skills you started with.

 

[AfterDark]

You can choose to limit your dive site choices by your education choices, but just don't whine if you're refused on a charter. That's what makes our world wonderful, you can somehow manage to go all these years without any certification (somewhat remarkable) in anything and the dive ops have the option to bump you without apology or embarrassment.

I'm a self-studied expert in the history of the great wars, does that qualify me to take troops into combat or teach a college course on the world wars? Your list means nothing... truly.

No studying is not doing. From Gilldiver list I've done:

Decompression Procedures Diver
Extended Range Diver
Adventure Diver
Boat Diver
Deep Diver
Drift Diver
Dry Suit Diver
Ice Diver
Night Diver
Search and Recovery Diver
Wreck Diver

No specific certs in any of them. However all these things were covered during my only cert course of 12 weeks in 1968. More important I did them for years sometimes solo and guess what, I'm alive a well and laughing at this great cert chase.

 

[Gilldiver]

You can choose to limit your dive site choices by your education choices, but just don't whine if you're refused on a charter. That's what makes our world wonderful, you can somehow manage to go all these years without any certification (somewhat remarkable) in anything and the dive ops have the option to bump you without apology or embarrassment.

Actually, the charters I have been going on, on the East Coast are easy, they either know me or know people I know. Its amazing what 3 to 5 minutes of talking to and watching a diver get ready can tell you about them. Ask the boat crews about it. On some of the more adventurous dives I've been on, USS Monitor for one, I get called to go. Unfortunately between work, house, and family I have to turn down most of these requests

It gets a bit more difficult with dive shops as they will CYA a lot more then a boat ever will. You also wind up talking to the "junior people" (shop monkey) in a shop way more then on a boat.

You seem to think I am anti-education, you have that all wrong. If/when I decide to get into caves or rebreathers I will most defiantly be taking a lot of training and I'll be extremely picky about the instructor(s) I use. In fact it looks like I will have a project down near Mexico City for the next 18 months or so. If so, I'll be heading down there every 6 to 8 weeks and the connection over to the Yucatan is only $88 and I have already started looking into cavern/cave classes and how I can fit them into my schedule and finances.

I will also restate that for a new diver these courses shorten the learning curve that took me 8-12 years to work through. What I do bitch about is new requirements for certification for things that I have been doing since before there was certifications for that activity

 

[marinediva]

Personally I can see both points of view.
It must be very painful for someone as experienced as some of the above members to be asked for certs. But it is a necessity that has come about because of many incidents where people claimed to be something they are not.

I agree that the amount of experience stated would exceed the average instructor, myself included. But, in my state of Aust, a code of practice was developed because far too many people were dying, going missing, etc etc. Yes in the end it may be about liability. Before it gets to that point it is about lives, reducing the risk and ensuring that everyone enjoys the dive.

There are many dive operators on the GBR. and thousands of people dive everyday to enjoy its wonders. This OH & S legislation was put into place after many incidents were people lost their lives, the biggest changes happened after "the Lonegans" went missing. It is to REDUCE the risk. The risk is not taken away but it does make it difficult for someone to claim they are something they are not. If you review the number of incidents last century to now one can see a difference.

I do not feel with so many operators and so many people diving it is unreasonable to ask for proof of certification. Whilst I agree certification is just a piece of plastic below the waterline, above the waterline it is was it is. A card which says this person has done what they state and the number on the corner is proof. It only assists in reducing the risk.

I would hate to be a paying customer on a dive boat and have my days diving traumatised by a diver incident only to find out the person was actually not certified, and had lied about their experience. Or that the person has said they were OW certified only to find out later the last time they had dived was 1990 on a holiday in Thailand.

OH & S is about safety and ensuring a safe workplace. Whilst that does not help the situation of very experienced divers without certification, it does assist operators and legitimate paying divers.

It is obvious to me that the older members above are passionate about diving, know the risks, and are not fools when taking dives. But I do not believe they are in a majority. I have no problem with divers doing what they like on/with their own boats or gear. They obviously know their own limits. I do have a problem with allowing divers to dictate to an dive operator what they are capable of without having to show some proof of their capabilities. Although not absolute, a certification card is a good start, and should be at least a minimum.

I sincerely feel for you guys, and can understand your opinions, but I wonder could be possible somewhere there is a grandfather clause which would make it possible for you to sit a test and be certified.

Just a note,
I have been a chef for over twenty years, even though I can show my employment and trade certification for that long, I still have to be qualified to instruct cooking in Australia. It does not matter how many apprentices I have mentored, or how many times I have taught outside of Aust,
in the past five years they have changed the requirements and now I must have my Cert4 in Training & Assessment. Life is a bitch sometimes.

 

[Thalassamania]

Here's the thing, those of us who have been at this a while don't resent being asked for a c-card, we think it is stupid that anyone places any faith in the idea that having such a card (any card, up to the highest of the highest piece of plastic) means that you know or can do anything. We all seen too many divers with a wallet full of cards, topped by a Super-duper Instructor card who couldn't perform at even a Beginner level, and we all know lot and lots of guys that started diving in the 50s and never bothered to go back and get a card, what do they need one for? They have their own boat, the have their own compressor, and they have little or no interest in a diving vacation to a Caribbean island. When I show up at a new institution they really don't care what cards I have, or even what my status at my home institution is, they want a check-out dive ... and that's really the only place that you can learn diddly-squat about a diver.

As far as coming back after a diving layofff, that's one my real areas of expertise, you see the scientists that I train often dive their brains out for a while, and then it's back into the lab, for months, sometimes even years, then it's back into the field. I've found that there is a certain level of proficiency, that once reached is rarely far from hand, even after a decade layoff. It only takes two to four dives to be right back at the top of your game if you know how, and that is one of the things that we teach as an integral part of the skills our students do, because we know that it will be an issue somewhere in their career.

As far as Australian Codes of Practice are concerned, I just read two of them and it appears that they are voluntary, not mandatory, and there is no place that it says you have to have a wreck diving card to go on a wreck diving charter.

 

[marinediva]

As far as Australian Codes of Practice are concerned, I just read two of them and it appears that they are voluntary, not mandatory,

With all due respect T,
Actually you are wrong. They are mandatory for dive operators.
The code of practice is part of OH & S legislation. The legislation is law.
There is a section of that legislation which states that the code of practice is the minimum requirement under the law. So in other words if an operator has a practice in place which is equal to or exceeds the code they are upholding the legislation.

If an operator did have an incident or was audited and was unable to show that the code of practice was being followed, or that their alternative practice was being followed they could receive a very large fine or even criminal charges, with imprisonment as one of the possible consequences.

In regards to wreck diving cert for a wreck dive, there is a clause which states, that the diver should have certification for the type of dive they are doing. This could be translated to mean wreck cert for wreck dive, and is translated this way by some operators. Certainly some wrecks which are at 18m + a diver would need a advanced cert at a minimum.

I know that many people THINK this is mandatory, and I have watched many discussions regarding this point. But since I have just studied OH &S legislation for my cert 4 qualification I can assure you they are wrong. The Qld Govt also has the power to audit dive operators, to enter a work place and ensure that the operation is running as it should. They do not need an incident to investigate whether OH & S legislation is being upheld.

Private boat owners are not covered by this legislation, but do have to ensure the way their boat is operated is up to scratch under the Maritime act.

In saying all of that, it should also be recognised that there is a clause under the code of practice which states an operator can take someone on a checkout dive prior to the dive to ensure ability.

 

[Thalassamania]

Actually you are wrong. They are mandatory for dive operators.
The code of practice is part of OH & S legislation. The legislation is law.
There is a section of that legislation which states that the code of practice is the minimum requirement under the law. So in other words if an operator has a practice in place which is equal to or exceeds the code they are upholding the legislation.

If an operator did have an incident or was audited and was unable to show that the code of practice was being followed, or that their alternative practice was being followed they could receive a very large fine or even criminal charges, with imprisonment as one of the possible consequences.

Then you'd best quote chapter and verse with a link to the underlying documents, because that's not what the codes that I just read said. They may be old, they maybe wrong, but that's not what they said.

In regards to wreck diving cert for a wreck dive, there is a clause which states, that the diver should have certification for the type of dive they are doing. This could be translated to mean wreck cert for wreck dive, and is translated this way by some operators. Certainly some wrecks which are at 18m + a diver would need a advanced cert at a minimum.

That could be translated to mean any sort of a damn thing that anyone might want it too. I repeat, no where does it say that a wreck card is required for a wreck dive as you claimed it did.

I know that many people THINK this is mandatory, and I have watched many discussions regarding this point. But since I have just studied OH &S legislation for my cert 4 qualification I can assure you they are wrong. The Qld Govt also has the power to audit dive operators, to enter a work place and ensure that the operation is running as it should. They do not need an incident to investigate whether OH & S legislation is being upheld.

Show me. Not an interpretation, not what you remember from a class, show me the law itself.