We don't need no education....

[AfterDark]

If the activity is particularly dangerous, or other divers are more at-risk, then I completely understand and support their concern. They're willing to trust your skill as much as you're willing to educate yourself... seems a fair balance.

That is the point, I have educated myself. My original cert. class was 12 weeks long, and yours was....? I dove regularly in the cold often dark and murky waters of New England from 1968 to 1995. Wreck,night,diving, as well as search and recovery diving assisting local fire and police depts. Many of my dives were solo in isolated sites sometimes a good number of miles off shore often times requiring decompression. I have made over 1500 dives, with probably over a 1000 hours in the water. This year I decided to get back in the water after 14 years topside. When I made my 1st dive it was like I had never stopped, all my skills were intact and were like second nature. I've been there done that and have all the T-shirts. You can look down your nose at me and my lack of certs all you want you only display your ignorance.

 

[RU4SKUBA]

A bit condescending and full of hubris, aren't we?

For some it is not a case of "as you're willing to educate yourself" it is a case the diver being certified being more qualified by, pick your metric - number of dives, conditions dived, areas dived, etc. then the instructor.

Sorry, but I find your comment humorously hypocritical. What you're saying is that you're better educated than a dive instructor, so you don't need to take anymore classes to either refine your education or fill in the gaps? Oh right, you don't have gaps in your education.

Who's got a hubris issue now?

Remember that your life isn't the only one on the boat, and if you're just too overly experienced (or perhaps lazy) to get training then why would anybody else trust you?

By what I've read here, I seriously doubt much of what you say.

 

[RU4SKUBA]

This year I decided to get back in the water after 14 years topside. When I made my 1st dive it was like I had never stopped, all my skills were intact and were like second nature. I've been there done that and have all the T-shirts. You can look down your nose at me and my lack of certs all you want you only display your ignorance.

Are you for real? You're complaining that dive charters aren't taking you on adventure dives that you're not professionally trained for after a 14 year hiatus?

Perhaps you should let a professional instructor be the judge of your skill?

You keep insulting me, but just remember I'm the diver with the current dive education and the qualifications to do adventure dives and all you have is YOUR list of logged dives from the 1980s and a grumpy demeanor. Take a class and get over yourself... reading isn't really that hard when you put your mind to it.

... and when did I mention your "lack of certs" at all? Do you have a lack of dive certification?

 

[AfterDark]

No chip just confidence in myself and ability. Did I say I haven't kept up? I said
I was topside for 14 years, I didn't say I wasn't keeping up with the latest gear and techniques. Has the affects of depth and time changed since the 1970's? Has wreck diving got more dangerous than is was in the 1980's Is it darker now at night then it was years ago? The only thing that has changed is there's now myth that diving is rocket science and one needs a shoe box full of expensive c-cards to do it. I'm sure in makes some feel good to have their skills blessed by someone else and receive it in writing. I'm just not one of those people. I haven't been refused a dive yet and as long as I'm diving here in NE waters where I'm known I'll not be refused. I would like to do some nice easy warm clear water diving next year and anticipate problems from what I've read on this board.

 

[RU4SKUBA]

I think topside for 14 years speaks for itself. Any dive op willing to take you on a Wreck would be taking huge liability risk, particularly with your lack of instructor-level training.

If you're worried about it, sign up for a Padi wreck diving course. It'll cost you maybe $250 and you'll probably get 2-4 dives and maybe a few new procedures out of it. You'll likely get a divemaster guide, reference materials, boat trip with emergency radio, free air refills and gear rentals, dive maps, and for hardly more than the cost of two 2-tank dive trips. Then you can prove to Padi and the dive world that you're as cool as you say you are.

 

[AfterDark]

Then you can prove to Padi and the dive world that you're as cool as you say you are.

 

[Gilldiver]

Sorry, but I find your comment humorously hypocritical. What you're saying is that you're better educated than a dive instructor, so you don't need to take anymore classes to either refine your education or fill in the gaps? Oh right, you don't have gaps in your education.

Who's got a hubris issue now?

Remember that your life isn't the only one on the boat, and if you're just too overly experienced (or perhaps lazy) to get training then why would anybody else trust you?

By what I've read here, I seriously doubt much of what you say.

How do I know you can do anything you say you can do? Because you are an Instructor?

I said that the industry has only been catching up to what we have been doing for the past 30 years. And I have educated myself, by doing where newer divers have an advantage of classes that shorten the learning curve. My curve took 10-12 years to the point where I can dive and penetrate wrecks in the 150-230 foot range (that max depth is self imposed, not cert imposed)

But how do I know an instructor is even capable of doing the dives I do? Instructors are the ones that stick in my mind as some of the biggest cluster jobs I have ever seen. I just don't want to pay anyone that 250-1000+ for a card when I don't have any idea if that instructor is qualified to even do what I am doing now.

 

[RU4SKUBA]

I've taken First Aid/CPR over a dozen times in my life, should I argue about re-certification with EFR or Red Cross since (by your justification) I should never need another CPR class again?

Or argue that basic CPR-First Aid qualifies me to be a paramedic since all my buddies say I'm qualified?

You're just arguing against certification since you blew it off, never bothered to receive instruction, and are now experiencing the consequences of poor academic planning. Perhaps eventually you did become good enough to do difficult dives, but at what risk?

Certification has always been a part of our society, it isn't anything insidious and it isn't anything new. Its just meant to guarantee a ****** doesn't end up on a dangerous adventure dive.

 

[Gilldiver]

I've taken First Aid/CPR over a dozen times in my life, should I argue about re-certification with EFR or Red Cross since (by your justification) I should never need another CPR class again?

Or argue that basic CPR-First Aid qualifies me to be a paramedic since all my buddies say I'm qualified?

CPR and First aid is set up as a period specific certification due to increasing knowledge and technique modifications. As such, I fully endorse re-training on a regular basses. Last time I looked there is no time limit on any dive cert with the exception of the GUE system.

You're just arguing against certification since you blew it off, never bothered to receive instruction,

Perhaps you missed the point where I said that I was doing it BEFORE there was Certification for the type of dives I am referring to? If I listen to some, you included, I would need to go and get of any number certs for what is a standard dive to me.

You're just arguing against certification since you blew it off, never bothered to receive instruction, and are now experiencing the consequences of poor academic planning. Perhaps eventually you did become good enough to do difficult dives, but at what risk?.

What risk? Actually quit a bit. I survived and lived through way too many accidents and deaths which is why I am not arguing that new divers should not go through the classes. I will argue that the class by it self doesn't qualify you to do the dives. Only training and experience gathered over time allows for that. I no longer dive below 130 without helium as we did back in the day when air dives to 200-250 were a norm, but then I started diving helium in 1993 as we started to figure out how to make this stuff safer. When did the first certification for mix diving come out?

Certification has always been a part of our society, it isn't anything insidious and it isn't anything new. Its just meant to guarantee a ****** doesn't end up on a dangerous adventure dive.

A cert in no way guarentee's anything. All you need to do is ask any dive boat crew member how many divers with advanced certs are complete clusters. Which is why I have never got anoyed at a check out dive in the islands, until they see if I can set up my gear, put it on, and actualy dive they have no idea of what I can do. We would also need to define what a "dangerous adventure dive" is. There most likely will be as many definitions of it as there are for Teck diving.

 

[Paladin]

AfterDark, Gilldiver, he evidently doesn't get that when we learned to dive back in the Dark Ages, our training included everything these new kids spend a fortune on by taking an endless series of little, quickie courses. There was no long list of certifications with separate classes for each. It was ALL included in one long, very intensive course. My training lasted over a year and included wrecks, deep dives, rescue, you name it. And none of it was from any formal agency. No c-card. I was taught by an ex-Navy diver and learned the Navy way. I did underwater salvage, body search and recovery and even trained a few other divers all before my 18th birthday. I dived for about 11 years before finally breaking down and getting my first c-card when I was 22. I only got the card then because it was getting hard to get air fills without it. But even that c-card had more value then than a whole pocket full of cards have now.

As far as how other divers perceive me because I haven't chased after more "training," I really don't much care. The vast majority of my dives have been solo (no solo cert. GASP!) and while it might be nice to have some company once in a while, I'm not gonna get all shook up if some Johnny-Come-Lately snubs his nose at me because I don't think it necessary to throw money away for a few cards to prove that I know what I know.

I, too, was away from diving for about 14 years, but it's like riding a bicycle. You don't forget. Not if you really learned it in the first place.

Incubus34, if you don't think guys like me are good enough to share the ocean with you because we don't need a pocket full of plastic, fine. Us old geezers will just congregate together and keep on keepin' on, just like we have for half a century.

AfterDark, Gilldiver, we're gonna hafta get together next summer somewhere. Maybe corral a few of the other greybeards for an Old Geezers' Dive Fest!