We don't need no education....

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What gets me is the way things have been set up. When I learned to dive, virtually everything was covered in training that is now divided up into little packages, each with its own card. When I finally went for my first C-card, after eleven years of diving in all kinds of conditions, I was given a Basic SCUBA card from PADI. At that time, that card meant a lot. It meant that I had experience in buddy breathing from depth, emergency ascents, deep dives (to 130 feet, my personal limit because I get narked easy), emergency and rescue procedures, you name it. That card came with no more restrictions to its use than I chose to place upon it myself.

Then, sometime in the '80s, I lost the original card and sent off to PADI for a replacement. To my dismay, my new card was marked "Alternate Air Source Required." Until that time, I was not even aware of the (to me) new practice of hooking another second stage to a regulator for emergency use. By 1992, my Basic C-card had become even more restricted, so I went through the motions to get my OW just to keep down the hassle.

Now, I find that if I want to dive below 60 ft. from a charter boat or other "official" dive operation, I will need an AOW. And this just to do what I was trained to do years before I even got my first C-card.

If the agencies want to compartmentalize their training of new divers, fine. But why penalize us old geezers by changing the "value" of our once meaningful certifications?

I'll get off my soap box now.

I had a similar issue. I still have my paper YMCA card from 1970. All it says is "Scuba Diver". The back of the card list the swim test requirements and standards and number of hours (32).
When I learned the Y was dropping scuba I decided it might be a good idea to get a extra card. The Y no longer had me on record so I had to send them a copy of both sides my card. I discussed the fact that my cards requirements at the time it was issued were pretty much equal to current AOW and asked for an AOW card. They said they would look into it but all I got as an OW card so I still show my original and then we discuss if they will accept it for a dive that requires AOW. If they don't I move on down the road.
 

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I had a similar issue. I still have my paper YMCA card from 1970. All it says is "Scuba Diver". The back of the card list the swim test requirements and standards and number of hours (32).
When I learned the Y was dropping scuba I decided it might be a good idea to get a extra card. The Y no longer had me on record so I had to send them a copy of both sides my card. I discussed the fact that my cards requirements at the time it was issued were pretty much equal to current AOW and asked for an AOW card. They said they would look into it but all I got as an OW card so I still show my original and then we discuss if they will accept it for a dive that requires AOW. If they don't I move on down the road.
In 1975 they were giving out plastic ones, but mine faded to nearly illegible by 1980, and dive operators were rolling their eyes whenever I showed it. I eventually broke down and got re-certified by PADI and NAUI. I sent $25 to YMCA when they emailed me about their card replacement program, but they couldn't find my certification record at all.
 
There must be a line somewhere. For example, does a charter just allow any old person to jump onboard and do trimix dives to 80m? Personally, I don't think any charter anywhere would do that without some form of evidence that the person is capable of doing those dives.

Oh, I have no problems with businesses doing that. After all, it's the privilege of a dive operator (or any business) to refuse service to anyone they deem unsafe/unprepared/just plain annoying.

What I can't stand is when the only evidence accepted is a piece of plastic of dubious value - and expertise proven through dive log, trusted third party, or other means doesn't matter any more.
 
I believe that there are specialty certifications which are a waste of money. However, I am glad that I spent the extra money to earn certifications in:

Underwater Naturalist, Deep Diver, Underwater Navigation, Nitrox, and Wreck Diving. I like animals, and I want to be able to identify potentially dangerous ones. I like history, so I want to be able to naviagate and penetrate shipwrecks safely, and because they are in deep water here in the North Atlantic, it is good to have nitrox and deep diver knoweldge to enjoy these dives safely. But, this is just my opinion and I am glad I made these educational investments.
 
What boggles my mind, is the description of the BS procedure for the private boats. The only reason I have a boat is because I got sick of the nonsense with the commercial charters in general.

As Sapotato points out, Australia is a big country.... 7,686,849 sq km to be exact, just a shade smaller than the US, 7,827,627 sq km.

ozmap1.JPG


Judging the whole country on one opinion, well..... that's like me saying that all of the US is the same on the basis of a couple of trips to Las Vegas!! :D

I've had my issues with commercial charters in Aussie, but to be honest the biggest issues I've had are them being too laid back as opposed to being too strict. I've done a little bit of diving of private boats in Aus, and never had to get a permit to do so.


What is the world coming to, a Kiwi standing up for the West Islanders! :wink:
 
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What I can't stand is when the only evidence accepted is a piece of plastic of dubious value - and expertise proven through dive log, trusted third party, or other means doesn't matter any more.

Things is, dive logs can be falsified.... I've seen people write all sorts of BS into their logbooks. From a pure liability point of view, the certification takes the guesswork out of the process - even if it is flawed.

You can normally gauge whether someone is experienced enough to do the dive they are planning after talking to them for a few minutes - here there is no BS, you do the dive you want and you take responsibility for it. The charters will put suggestions on what relatively new divers do if diving unguided. It's like that in parts of Aussie too.
 
I'm sure I'll get crucified for it, but it occurs to me that there's a sliding scale of real risk when it comes to certain "specialty" certs. The real risk in allowing someone with an OW Cert but a log book that shows experience at 30m seems less than the risk of allowing someone with the same cert to rent a nitrox cylinder and go diving. I have certainly had experiences where I went on vacation and when I got to the dive shop I could not locate my card and only had my book to go on. The good news? The dive shops call and/or look online and get your certification. It seems like it would be easy enough to ascertain whether or not someone had the right level of qualification to do a dive. Notwithstanding the point that a diver who is qualified could pay a DM to make a check-out dive with them to the wreck/depth in question and get "signed-off" for the remainder of their trip. Seems like a reasonable thing if you're making 10-20 dives with that shop over the course of a week or two.

Most specialty certs are a joke. I feel like nitrox isn't one of them due to the added variables it introduces in your dive plans. Experience should be enough for depth/wrecks/night diving but I'm not sure a log book is the best way to prove that experience unless you have logs signed off by instructors or stamped by a shop as you can easily fabricate dives by just writing them in and scribbling someone else's name to "verify"
 
I'm sure I'll get crucified for it, but it occurs to me that there's a sliding scale of real risk when it comes to certain "specialty" certs.

Not specialty certs, all certs. My other half didn't do an AOW course for a long time - with 15 years of diving in cold water, her OW card never restricted the diving we wanted to do. She only every did her AOW course because she lost her OW card and it was just as easy to do the course as it was to get a replacement card.

There is a risk that a "wreck certified diver" will still so stupid things, like go through a restriction that is too narrow for two divers to pass through, or wander out of the light zone with no guideline etc etc. There's also a risk that someone who is an OW with 1000 dives will do this. How do you compare the risk? How do you quantify it? How do you make objective decisions?

Proof of certification is one tool in the box. It certainly provides an objective "standard" - then you make decisions on the exceptions you want to make, as opposed to having to make a decision on each and every diver.


Most specialty certs are a joke. I feel like nitrox isn't one of them due to the added variables it introduces in your dive plans. Experience should be enough for depth/wrecks/night diving but I'm not sure a log book is the best way to prove that experience unless you have logs signed off by instructors or stamped by a shop as you can easily fabricate dives by just writing them in and scribbling someone else's name to "verify"

I tend to disagree. A specialty course is only a joke when there's a combination of an instructor who doesn't care and a student who doesn't care.

If the student really cares, they'll take the time to hunt around and find the right instructor for them and will get a lot of value out of any course.

If the instructor really cares, they'll do their damndest to add value where they can in the interests of the student.

I also disagree that "experience alone" is enough to prepare someone for wreck diving. 1000 wreck dives does not make someone competent at wreck penetration. I guess you might be able to self-learn how to use a guideline, and you might be able to recognise which passageways you couldn't share air through, feasibly you might even start to get an awareness of line traps and how to avoid them.... but probably only after a few foul ups and close shaves.

You can learn these things from other experienced wreck divers much more quickly and safely than trying to learn them yourself, I agree. One way of doing that is through a good wreck course. Even though it's not "officially" in the syllabus, we teach about line traps on our basic wreck course. We simulate air sharing through a restriction (dry run). We demonstrate the advantages of long hoses. We hammer home the importance of good fin technique. We talk about team protocols for penetration. The list goes on..... and I haven't even started on our advanced wreck course that we offer.

It's not just us, there are plenty of really good instructors out there who teach this stuff (or the equivalent for night, deep, or whatever). But you have to hunt around and ask the questions, talk to previous students and basically take control of your own learning.
 
As Sapotato points out, Australia is a big country.... 7,686,849 sq km to be exact, just a shade smaller than the US, 7,827,627 sq km.

ozmap1.JPG


Judging the whole country on one opinion, well..... that's like me saying that all of the US is the same on the basis of a couple of trips to Las Vegas!! :D

I've had my issues with commercial charters in Aussie, but to be honest the biggest issues I've had are them being too laid back as opposed to being too strict. I've done a little bit of diving of private boats in Aus, and never had to get a permit to do so.

Private boats don't really require permits or anything like that I think. I've dived off them too and you can pretty much do what you want off your own boat. The only law in relation to scuba diving locally is that you must display a dive flag. Everything else is not enforceable but more to do with insurance...

What is the world coming to, a Kiwi standing up for the West Islanders! :wink:

:rofl3: Cheers AndyNZ :)
 

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