We don't need no education....

[Sas]

I believe you... I'm sure there are a lot of rules and guidelines on that link. Also I don't mean to single you out or Australian operators either; there are plenty of similar rules and guidelines in the US and many other countries.

Well yes there is a wide variation of how Australian operators work so you can't assume that those rules and guidelines are actually followed actually. I have had my card + log checked by one for a dive, most check cards the first time you use them + want a disclaimer signed and yet others haven't had a problem with me showing up two minutes before the boat has left for the first dive I've ever done with them, a wreck dive and not taking any of my info or asking me to do a disclaimer. Same goes with getting fills - have only been asked for my card at one or two stores, and never for nitrox. One thing that I have always had checked is hydro stamps + O2 clean sticker though

 

[marinediva]

HMAS Brisbane and S.S. YONGALA to start.
Both wrecks sit at below 18m and required AOW under the code of practise.

Why, because an operator is required to only take divers to the extent of their certification.

In reference to checking air and good operator, I suggested that because it would depend how you interpret the code.

I am not saying this is right or wrong, what I am saying is there is a code of practise in place,
which has been made by the industry for the industry.

These codes are often reviewed and changes take place when accidents are looked at and the causes or series of causes are addressed.

To my knowledge this same code or something very similar is valid in other states not just Qld.

Currently I am also a member of a dive club. If one of our members only had OW and we were doing a dive on a wreck at 30m, unfortunately the dive officer in charge of the dive would not allow then to dive. again, its not money, its about the OH &S.

 

[marinediva]

HMAS Hobart



CODE OF PRACTICE

There is a "Code of Practice" that has been formulated to indicate to divers what is needed to dive this wreck. It is stated that "agreeing to comply with the code is a pre-condition to access" to the wreck (page 2 of Code). This code is the biggest load of rubbish related to scuba diving that I have ever read in my life.

Open Water Divers can only swim over the outside of the wreck and should not enter any section of the wreck that does not allow direct vertical access to the surface (that is 99% of the wreck) and limit their dive to 18 metres. Advanced Open Water Divers have the same restrictions but can go to 30 metres. Wreck Divers (Recreational) can enter the wreck but must stay within light areas. Technical Wreck Divers can enter all sections of the wreck and do decompression dives (none of the first mentioned divers can do deco dives). Cave/Penetration Divers can do the same as Technical Divers so I do not see why this is a specific category.

Even though I have completed over 2,300 dives, of which more than 612 dives have been deeper than 30 metres, with over 500 dives on shipwrecks, because I do not have a wreck certificate I am not supposed to enter the wreck where there is no direct vertical access to the surface. In addition, because I do not have technical wreck or cave diver training (I have only done more than 329 dives deeper than 40 metres, virtually all on shipwrecks), I am not supposed to enter the dark areas of the wreck. This is even more stupid as even if I did have such a certificate, I would need to carry with me:

2 tanks
3 lights
2 knives
dive computer as well as depth and timing device
decompression tables
slate and pencil (why?)
compass (!!!)
2 reels
safety sausage

Get real! The only items on this list that are really needed are one tank, one torch and a computer. A safety sausage is a something I think everyone should also carry, but it is not essential for this dive. The rest are extra things to carry around, creating more drag and leading to the potential to get tangled on the wreck.

I should also state that the procedure for private boat owners to get permits to dive the wreck are so onerous as to be ridiculous. You cannot apply for a permit by mail, or email or over the internet. You have to personally travel into Adelaidee to get a permit. Not just the owner of the boat, each person who is going to dive the wreck!

 

[Sas]

Oh I see. Saying you need 'wreck' to be able to dive the wreck is not strictly true then. You only need OW to get on a charter. What you do under the surface is likely to be out of the control of the operator. I routinely do wall dives that have a depth of 70m but are ranked depending on where the shot line is. (i.e if it is in 18m of water, OW divers can do it, 30ms, AOW, etc). There is nothing actually stopping me (or a newly certified OW diver) from diving to 70m on an OW site if I wish (other than common sense ). It appears to be the same with this wreck. Or can charters somehow control what people do once they are under the water? I guess they can always stop them diving it a second time - if so how often does this happen?

 

[vladimir]

Hello all,

In another thread, dealing with poneys, double etc...AfterDark wrote this:



Well, it got me to think...
Although not very politically correct...he has a point...

There are a series of cert that are not very usefull, aren't they...(except to make cert. agency richer)

Case in point :

I dive in frigid water, so I own a DUI...: I never took a dry suit course...
I've read up a bit, asked my friends to help me with the feet up uncontrol ascent thingy, read and ask some more...and today, I feel as confortable in my DUI as in my Bare 7mm + 7mm...

Another class that sounds thouroughly useless...

Nitrox...took it...should have been a 5 min chapter in AOW...
Underwater Photography...lol
Drift Diving (c'mon...I've drift dove dozens of time without a class...)

Now don't get me wrong.
I am very much in favor of education (in diving and in real life)...

But some of it is becoming outrageous...Soon Paddi will come up with 3 more certs: hot water divier, cold water diver and temprate water diver.

Or 2 more: southern hemispher diver and northern hemisphere diver...

So what is your opinion on this ?

All scuba certification necessary ?

best

I think there is pretty wide agreement on Scubaboard that some of the "fluff" certifications like boat and night diver are a little ridiculous. I agree with your assessment of the nitrox cert as well. (I'd still like to have back those two silly dives in the Coral Sea that I wasted following around an instructor for my nitrox cert.) I am curious what your assessment of underwater photography classes is based on, though. I have been an underwater photographer for hundreds of dives and I don't consider it a trivial pursuit. It is certainly a lot easier than in the film days to get a respectable shot out of a dive, but I think most underwater photographers would benefit from a class, and the photo galleries here are pretty good evidence of that.

 

[vladimir]

HMAS Brisbane and S.S. YONGALA to start.
Both wrecks sit at below 18m and required AOW under the code of practise.

Why, because an operator is required to only take divers to the extent of their certification.

In reference to checking air and good operator, I suggested that because it would depend how you interpret the code.

I am not saying this is right or wrong, what I am saying is there is a code of practise in place,
which has been made by the industry for the industry.

These codes are often reviewed and changes take place when accidents are looked at and the causes or series of causes are addressed.

To my knowledge this same code or something very similar is valid in other states not just Qld.

Currently I am also a member of a dive club. If one of our members only had OW and we were doing a dive on a wreck at 30m, unfortunately the dive officer in charge of the dive would not allow then to dive. again, its not money, its about the OH &S.

This kind of nannying by the government drives me crazy for all sorts of reasons, and it is why my last trip to Queensland (in 2000) will probably be my last trip to Queensland, even though I've moved back into the neighborhood. I am glad to have made 4 trips before things got ridiculous.

 

[AndyNZ]

Get real! The only items on this list that are really needed are one tank, one torch and a computer.

Whilst I don't know this particular wreck, if you're doing dives beyond the light zone then three lights is a really good idea and a reel is also particular useful. Personally, I wouldn't penetrate a wreck to that extent without twin tanks as well.

 

[marinediva]

Hi Saspotato,
Yes and No to your answer.
Just checked the Vic code of Practice, which is based on the Qld Document.
It appears checks would happen before the charter starts.
Often a predive video is shown definately the Brisbane requires the video.

Take for instance the Brisbane, the group may be divided into divers entering the wreck and divers not. Divers are expected to stay with the group.

Under the code a diver with OW is deemed to be in need of a dive leader.

It should also be noted that someone who cannot prove by dive log etc to have dived in similar conditions or recently, would be required to do a check out dive under the code.

There would be operators who would required a wreck certification to enter the wreck.
Certainly the Hobart has its own code and specifies that.

I totally understand that the average diver knows their own capabilities and limitations. Personally it is an individuals choice as to what they wish to do and accomplish with their diving, though as an instructor and or someone who is working with a registered operator I would have a code of practice to uphold. Whether it is stupid, excessive etc etc is irrelevant.

 

[Sas]

Hi Saspotato,
Yes and No to your answer.
Just checked the Vic code of Practice, which is based on the Qld Document.
It appears checks would happen before the charter starts.
Often a predive video is shown definately the Brisbane requires the video.

Take for instance the Brisbane, the group may be divided into divers entering the wreck and divers not. Divers are expected to stay with the group.

Under the code a diver with OW is deemed to be in need of a dive leader.

It should also be noted that someone who cannot prove by dive log etc to have dived in similar conditions or recently, would be required to do a check out dive under the code.

There would be operators who would required a wreck certification to enter the wreck.
Certainly the Hobart has its own code and specifies that.

Hmm well it doesn't really work like that down here in my experience. Never seen a video beforehand? There is not much penetration diving available <30m but say the J4 sub you can swim right through, and charters have not specifically restricted OW divers from entering (OW divers do frequently go into that wreck because it is straightforward). I have never seen a charter provided DM get in the water, they stay on the boat. Often clubs or shops that bring their club members along might have a DM in the water but not if you just sign up yourself to the charter. Is definitely not required. With the main charter the first time you dive with them they ask to see your cert card, how many dives you've done (this is not verified) and if you've dived in cold water. Apparently they also state you need to have a snorkel, a computer, redundant gas supply below 30m and a few other things but I haven't personally been checked for a snorkel, a computer or a redundant air supply (though I agree this can be done subtely). Anyway, it might be the code of practice down here but it seems more 'theory' than 'practice' to me.

Given they have just sunk the Canberra I am interested to see if they impose any restrictions on this. I have heard a rumour (but not verified, was told to me by a LDS owner) that they will require Wreck. I can imagine people not being very happy about this if they do in fact add this restriction

 

[AfterDark]

I'm glad I don't live downunder. Although I see the US going down the same opressive nanny state road. One of the things I've always loved about diving was the freedom one had underwater, now the do-gooders are even taking that away.