We don't need no education....

[*dave*]

I hear this complaint about the boat specialty about as often as I hear divers complain about clueless divers they've dealt with on boats.

This specialty could provide a lot of value for divers if it were taught with value as a priority. DSMB deployment, gas and deco planning, navigation, boat etiquette, boat safety, buoyancy control.... All these things would add significant value to an otherwise worthless specialty.

This is one of the worst classes I've seen instructors teach. It is truly a case of taking someone's money for skills they should learn in OW.

In fact I won't teach "Boat Diving" unless the student has a personal water craft and wants to learn how to responsibly dive off of it in local lakes (Local laws, anchoring, knots, exit/entry for their type of craft, gear distribution, etc.). Now considering salt water, if someone wants to fly me down to the Carribean to learn how to handle their boat off of an island, I'm not going to disappoint them now, am I?

Otherwise, why give out a card to show they know how to fall off the back of a boat?

 

[DCBC]

At the end of the day, it also depends on what the students want. Many students just want the card, for whatever reason, and really have no other aspiration that that. There are plenty of cheap courses where you turn up, do a few things and get the card.

The more important question, for a potential student, is what do you want to learn? The onus for education is never entirely on the instructor, the student also has a responsibility to have a desire to learn and it's that desire that stimulates an instructor to push a course in any given direction, or to add in the extra material. it makes the course appropriate for the student(s), not just some generic cookie cutter course.

Hi Andy,

Yes, but the Instructor should have some sort of ethical standard that validates the education so he's not wasting his time. I'm not willing to teach to a level that will put the diver in an environment which s/he is unprepared for; regardless if that's what the student, the LDS or the training agency wants.

If the student doesn't have the desire to learn; he fails. If the student doesn't demonstrate the required skill-set (the agencies and mine); he fails. I'll keep putting in the effort regardless of time, but there's no such thing as an undeserved certification.

Like you said their are plenty of courses. If the student doesn't want to work for it, there are other Instructors who don't seem to have a problem with that.

 

[AndyNZ]

Yes, but the Instructor should have some sort of ethical standard that validates the education so he's not wasting his time. I'm not willing to teach to a level that will put the diver in an environment which s/he is unprepared for; regardless if that's what the student, the LDS or the training agency wants.

Yes, myself also. But some students just want to a course "because", not because they have a goal they are trying to achieve. Sometimes it's less clear than not being ready for the dives - for example a student wanting a photography course, but they're not really sure why. I can teach a pretty good photography course to a student who comes along and says "all of my photos are underexposed, I want to learn to take correctly exposed photos". I'm less effective at teaching photography to someone who "just wants to take some photos" and has not motivation or specific goal.... not that I teach photography courses, it's just a benign example!

 

[AfterDark]

It is up to the diver(s). If someone has the resources and feels confident that he/she understands what is involved in doing a dive safely than there is nobody to stop them. If a diver wants to dive from a charter boat(s), then as witnessed on this thread you'll need certs. I don't see a down side to someone that has never done "advanced" type diving to learning how. The pebble in my shoe is the fact that I have to layout $$ to get certs for something I've done many times just to be able to spend more $$ on a dive charter that was the reason I had to spend the $$ in the 1st place. I met an instructor who's father was probably playing in a wading pool when I was diving the Helda Gassta, or the LoelenHolland. I have a problem taking him serious. I'm a diver not an actor.

 

[Ana]

Just as a note if you did not have a nitrox cert, you should not expect to be using it nitrox on my boat.

I find this statement interesting. I'm assuming you have a charter boat... so a diver comes to you and books a dive (or set of dives). The diver has all his gear including his tanks, why would it matter to you what gas the diver is breathing?
I understand it would be bad if the diver decides to breath poison and fall dead in the deck of your boat but assuming normal %'s are you liable for their gas if you didn't supply it?

Not to be off topic... I agree with the OP, there are way to many silly certifications.
But then again, operators has silly requirements, what's a person to do if they don't have their own boat.

 

[Gombessa]

I've never taken any AOW courses (and I've posted something tangentially related to this before) since it seemed to me like many of the "speciality" dives involved tended to be more experience dives than class/education sessions (I know some instructors like NWGratefuldiver have a butt-kicking AOW, but that sentiment seemed to be the exception rather than the rule, both generally and in my local area). Besides, I've had a number of dives involving multi-leg navigation, drysuits, night diving, and deeper-than-60ft diving before knowing anything about AOW, so by the time I did learn about it, the program didn't seem all that compelling to me.

What I did have for my dives were diligent and thoughtful mentors, who demonstrated great buddy skills, introduced me to new concepts, pushed me to lead dives rather than just follow, and expand my boundaries in a safe, controlled way. This let me take much of my "education" at a pace that was well suited for me and IMO much more thorough than in a typical class setting.

From my own experience, I'd have to agree that not all classes are strictly necessary for the diving they teach. I wouldn't pretend to be qualified to teach anyone or bring an uncertified diver into the water with me, but stuff like drysuit, nitrox and AOW-type experiences aren't a problem if the diver demonstrates the proper aptitude and attitude.

 

[AndyNZ]

It is up to the diver(s). If someone has the resources and feels confident that he/she understands what is involved in doing a dive safely than there is nobody to stop them.

It's a question of whether you know what you don't know. I would hazard a guess that many divers pushing their limits don't know what they don't know.

I find this statement interesting. I'm assuming you have a charter boat... so a diver comes to you and books a dive (or set of dives). The diver has all his gear including his tanks, why would it matter to you what gas the diver is breathing?

Welcome to Australia, perhaps the only country in the world more litigious than the US! It's a CYA situation.

 

[Paladin]

What gets me is the way things have been set up. When I learned to dive, virtually everything was covered in training that is now divided up into little packages, each with its own card. When I finally went for my first C-card, after eleven years of diving in all kinds of conditions, I was given a Basic SCUBA card from PADI. At that time, that card meant a lot. It meant that I had experience in buddy breathing from depth, emergency ascents, deep dives (to 130 feet, my personal limit because I get narked easy), emergency and rescue procedures, you name it. That card came with no more restrictions to its use than I chose to place upon it myself.

Then, sometime in the '80s, I lost the original card and sent off to PADI for a replacement. To my dismay, my new card was marked "Alternate Air Source Required." Until that time, I was not even aware of the (to me) new practice of hooking another second stage to a regulator for emergency use. By 1992, my Basic C-card had become even more restricted, so I went through the motions to get my OW just to keep down the hassle.

Now, I find that if I want to dive below 60 ft. from a charter boat or other "official" dive operation, I will need an AOW. And this just to do what I was trained to do years before I even got my first C-card.

If the agencies want to compartmentalize their training of new divers, fine. But why penalize us old geezers by changing the "value" of our once meaningful certifications?

I'll get off my soap box now.

 

[Gilldiver]

What gets me is the way things have been set up. When I learned to dive, virtually everything was covered in training that is now divided up into little packages, each with its own card. When I finally went for my first C-card, after eleven years of diving in all kinds of conditions, I was given a Basic SCUBA card from PADI. At that time, that card meant a lot. It meant that I had experience in buddy breathing from depth, emergency ascents, deep dives (to 130 feet, my personal limit because I get narked easy), emergency and rescue procedures, you name it. That card came with no more restrictions to its use than I chose to place upon it myself.

Then, sometime in the '80s, I lost the original card and sent off to PADI for a replacement. To my dismay, my new card was marked "Alternate Air Source Required." Until that time, I was not even aware of the (to me) new practice of hooking another second stage to a regulator for emergency use. By 1992, my Basic C-card had become even more restricted, so I went through the motions to get my OW just to keep down the hassle.

Now, I find that if I want to dive below 60 ft. from a charter boat or other "official" dive operation, I will need an AOW. And this just to do what I was trained to do years before I even got my first C-card.

If the agencies want to compartmentalize their training of new divers, fine. But why penalize us old geezers by changing the "value" of our once meaningful certifications?

I'll get off my soap box now.

My experience was pretty much the same. I got a NAUI Open Water diver cert in 1979, took the NITROX cert when it first came out in 1992 or 93, got my AOW in 1995 as it was becoming a real pain to dive anything without that card by them. My AOW "test" was taking an instructor into the engine room of the USS Tarpon and getting him a gauge. He held the bag while I did all the work as he didn't know much about wreck penetration and getting in and out of hatches. After the dive with "his gauge" in his hands he asked what he could do for me, I just asked if I had pasted the AOW test. Perhaps I should find him and get a wreck diving cert now?

The last cert I got was my mix cert in January 2008, almost 10 years after my first mix dive.

Good training is great as it shortens the learning curve, poor training is worst then none as it may make you think you have an idea of what you are doing when you don't. My own "Training" has been the result of years (30 this year) of North East wreck diving where either you learned or got out. Along the way I have had to become a good boat person to help run the boat, learned how to set and pull hooks, and how to dive the wrecks. I have also become somewhat of an expert on 1840's-1950's steam engines and steamships in general.

Get good training, then go learn on your own and from others that you KNOW, know what they are doing. Dive in as many environments as you can. Quarry dives and Island dives do not make you ready to shore dive on the west coast surf any more then they make you ready to jump on a Northeast U-Boat no matter what or how many certs you have. Only experience beyond basic training will ever give you that.

 

[marinediva]

I find this statement interesting. I'm assuming you have a charter boat... so a diver comes to you and books a dive (or set of dives). The diver has all his gear including his tanks, why would it matter to you what gas the diver is breathing?
I understand it would be bad if the diver decides to breath poison and fall dead in the deck of your boat but assuming normal %'s are you liable for their gas if you didn't supply it?

I believe the situation would not change. Because you are a guest on the boat we would have a
duty of care. Someone would need to see evidence of cert to meet safety standards.